Fa jing?

I dug up an old thread to post my $.02

This is the method that I learned through self-study and later proper instruction and confirmation. The descriptions come from various sources.

"...Jin means Qi-Li or Li-Qi (Li: muscular power, [or force derived from movement of the muscles]). This means to use the Qi to energize the muscle to increase the manifested power." *

"In addition, from the chinese structure of the word, Jin can be divided into 2 words: path and (Li) force. From this, you can see that the meaning of Jin is actually "direct the muscular force into the precise path"" **

"Jin is sometimes replaced by Jin-Li. The reason for this is simply that Jin is the manifestation of muscular power (Li) with the Yi (intention) and Qi's internal support. Often it is also simply called Li." **

There are 5 bows (Wu Gong) in the body. The 2 arms, 2 legs, and torso (sometimes referred to as 2 bows the spine and chest, but works as one connected).

"In order to manifest your Jin [Fa (emit) Jin], you must know how to coordinate all of the 6 bows. Initiate the movement from the leg bow, control by the waist, store at the spine bow and chest bow, and finally manifest with the arm bows to the target. Wu, Yu Xiang said: "Power is emitted from the spine" (Li You Ji Fa)." **

It is essentially a bio-mechanical process using a wave-like motion of the spine. It makes use of, and requires the fundamental principles of IMA's. The crown of the head is raised, lifting through BaiHui (GV-20) point. The chin is tucked, this closes of DaZhui point (GV-14) on the Du Mai (back) meridian (as well as physical area in the neck).

HuiYun point (CO-1) is always held up. Storing Qi in the Dantian.

To emit: the coccyx/tailbone (weilu) tucks under with force, straightening the lower back, this jolts the dantian which sends the qi (through the help of reverse breathing at this point (or duration of fight) and the diaphragm) into the Du Mai meridan via Mingmen point (GV-4). It travels up the spine following the wave created by the chest bow, where its diverted at DaZhui point at the top of the spine into the arms where it travels to Neiguan point (P-6) at the inner side of the forarm near the wrist area. The intention (Yi) combined with relaxing and tensing controls the manifestation and type of Jin and direction at this point. (i.e. whether its short (Duan Jin) or long (Chuan Jin), or shocking (Zhen Jin).

Of course its just a bio-mechanical result which in itself provides a 2nd physical force to strikes, but without storing of qi through some form of qi gong it isn't technically fajin. The dantian needs to be full to capacity so that the surplus has to be stored in the rest of the body and the strikes work with and and rebuild this surplus. Or so I've heard, that level is still beyond me.

It takes a lot of time to get the spine and chest to move in a fluid manner, it can't be forced. It has to be slowly and gradually practiced a little at a time. I'd try to find to find video of a good Chen Taiji guy, although the more advanced the more hidden it is and harder to see. Practice it 10 minutes a day. It took me about 2 years to get it, although that was without any descriptions or words, just from trying to mimic the movement. Six years later it is still being refined and getting faster and smoother. It moves in a circle in the vertical plane so its best to learn it with a strike like xingyi's Pi Chuan. After you have that it takes awhile to use it horizontal strikes to the side like in bagua. It eventually becomes second nature and requires one quick thought, to tuck the tailbone, setting off the chain reaction, although afterwards it needs to be re-cocked, so to speak, by relaxing the spine and bringing the Qi back to the Dantian. It works on a different level than the leading of qi to hands as in qi gong or taiji, as you've probably already figured out that those things couldn't be done in the midst of a fight. The nature of it also makes it difficult to do in succession, while stepping, so the key is making sure its used on a strike that will land, through the use of proper set-ups.

Hope this helps, I'm not a teacher just a fellow student of IMA's myself but to the best of my knowledge its accurate.




* -Tai Chi Secrets of the Wu & Li Styles by Yang, Jwing-Ming

** - Taijiquan Theory by Yang, Jwing-Ming

 

Thanks Kronos. I agree with this description, particulalry the point that the "motor" of Fa-jing is the waist and spine/chest. This, I believe, suppose that fa-jing requires a short rather than long stance, as a long stance gives horizontal power - a la a Karate/Wu Shu strike - whereas Fa-jing requires vertical power - a la the flexing of the spine. Indeed, it seems to me impossible to tuck the pelvis and flex the spine from a long, low stance, and I have seen people try and pass this stuff off as Fa-jing, mostly chen Taiji practitioners.

One method I use to test Fa-jing is mitt striking. Fa-jing is an exposive rather than pushing force. If you are wearing typical punching mitts, the one your hands strap into, then a good Fa-jing punch will sting your hand through the mitt. A "pushing" punch will not do this.

Also, although the waist/spine is the motor, the whole body must shake violently - every molecule of it. Anything less is not Fa-jing - i.e. just shaking the waist and the "attacking" limb. I had one Taiji instructor (yang and chen)
try and pass this sort of thing off as Fa-jing. This is one thing to look for - when the person punches, what is their other hand doing? Is it limp or active?

 

You can do it from a Lying step and horizontally you just need a really open and relaxed kua. I'm just starting the low basin work and it's definitely hard to achieve it down low.

The shaking you are referring to is actually a Trembling Jin (Zhan Jin) or Shaking Jin (Dou Jin), it starts out imitating a dog shaking water off but should be more like a horse shaking/trembling to get flies of its back. Its an entirely different thing, but I agree a lot of people try to pass that off as fajin.
We use the trembling jin either through 2 hands on an opponents chest or through the shoulder blades if someones grabbing you from behind, either way it ends with a nice fajin. On the latter it takes out their crotch and legs.

 

Because the issuing of energy {fa-jing} comes from the backbone the whole body will shake. Anything less is not an issuing of energy.

 

Try whipping your backfist out from a relaxed(hands at sides) position using only your waist. once you get the idea try to put out candles. also 1-6 inch iron palm training builds very snappy fa jin strikes when laid over long palm iron palm training.

 

Fa Ching is when you release chi with an explosive strike. Some styles that focus a lot on Fa Ching are Chen Tai Chi Chuan (Chen Style Grand Ultimate Fist), Baji Quan (8 Extremes Fist), Hsing-I Chuan (Form/Will Fist), Xinyi Liuhe Chuan (Free-Mind 6-Combination Fist), Pa Hsien Hsiang Chung Li (8 Immortals Hsiang Chung Li), and Liu Hsing Chuan (Meteor Fist).

 

Go Kronos!

First off I’d like to say something that I’ve wanted to say for a couple of hours now.

KRONOS … you really know what your talking about and I can appreciate that. Seriously though, I love reading all the different things you post and all of it is extremely helpful.

Now the thing were all talking about, Fa Jin starts where all the strikes from the IMA start. The Transverse abdominal muscles.

http://www.acay.com.au/~mkrause/TransAbdo.htm

Like in Xing Yi we hear the phrase “side to side”. Well if you look at the movement in most , if not all IMA, they start with these muscle groups. Looking at what KRONOS said about the 5 bows of the body it’s easy to see where the Transverse abdominal muscles play the most important part, the arms just fly out and have no real tension till the point of impact, then they take up staying tension insted of pushing.

Want to be good at Fa Jin or just IMAs in general? Then you have to devote a little more time to the workings and understandings of the Interior/core muscles, the Transverse abdominal.

- Neji :Angel:

 

It's perfectly possible to fa-jin in a low stance, it's just harder. And what's up with the derogatory implications about Chen style? Also, jin-dao is not unique to Taiji, either. It is a very generic term that just means "release jin," jin meaning tension or power. (The character can be pronounced "jin" or "jing," but I prefer to use "jin" in English because "jing" can be confused with the "jing" that means "essence.")

There are many different kinds of jin-dao, even some we would not think of as offensive, called "shou-jin" (defensive jin). "Fa" is just the verb used for any kind attacking-oriented jin-dao. Among these are crushing jin, repulsing jin, etc. For example, in the long-armed gibbon forms of Praying Mantis there is a kind of strike that comes up frequently in which you punch first while steping into a long, deep stance, and then punch again without pulling back. The first one is called "chang-jin," (long-jin) while the second is called "cun-jin" (inch-jin). It seems to me that the jin-dao in IMAs comes primarily from the dantian, though it has to pass through the spine to get to the arms...but then again, the legs and feet can fa-jin too, so I don't see how it could be "created" by the spine exclusively.

People seem to think that the explosive movements found in Chen Taiji and some other styles are "fa-jin." This is too generic. They are all jin-dao, but they have different names depending on the direction, body part, purpose, body-mechanics, etc.

BTW, I agree very much with the Nejix's comments about Kronos. He seems to really know his stuff.

 

I didn't mean to be derrogatory towards Chen style. I have only met a couple of Chen practitioners, though the one who attempted to show 'fa-jing' to me was weak as water. Of course this means nothing other than that he was crap.

In my opinion, doing fa-jing from a low stances is like doing push-hands from a low stance - it takes the power out of the waist and puts it in the legs, which is wrong. Push hands becomes pushing with the legs rather than the turning of the waist, like a wheel. The transference of the weight between the legs must be dictated by the waist, because the waist determines the direction of energy. So too, the waist creates fa-jing, not the pushing of the legs. This is a question of body mechanics, so respond in kind. Please do not give me a Chinese language lesson.

 

The fa-jin in Taiji comes from the dantian, not the spine. The spine channels qi and adds to the body mechanics, but it doesn't store or release qi to a significant degree on its own. The twisting motion of the legs and spine do indeed help create chansi-jin (silk-reeling energy), but fa-jin is created by a sudden transfer of dantian qi the extremeties. Why is it wrong to use your legs in push-hands, btw? The most important mover in Taiji body mechanics is the kua, not the waist (though the waist is far more common as the primary generator of power in most other CMAs I know of--Praying Mantis and Bagua, for example), and Taiji seeks to use the enegy of the whole body, starting from the feet. Certainly the movement of the waist plays a major role in the direction the energy takes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't engage the legs as well. I think the lower you can make your stance and still use all the correct Taiji body mechanics, the more force you will be able to exert and the stronger your legs will become.

Unlike chansi-jin, fa-jin exists independant of body mechanics. You can fa-jin while holding your arm out at full extension and without perceptibly moving the rest of the body. Of course, it is rarely used in isolation--the combination of chansi-jin and fa-jin is obviously much more powerful than either one alone, but fa-jin is not about body mechanics, it's about the movement of the qi. As to the mechanics of the movement of the qi (which I guess could be considered a type of body mechanics), you exert a kind of pressure on the dantian as if it were a balloon filled with qi which you are squeezing, then the qi jumps to the hand or wherever else your intention directs it and back again.

 

I'm no genius... or are I?




Getting in a low horse with the tailbone tucked, the knees not pass the toes, and the torso upright is hard in itself. Not too many can put power into strikes from there.

"Fa Jin - Issuing Energy:
Store up energy till plentiful, like a bent bow. Issue energy like an arrow, swiftly away from the bowstring. With a single purpose, in one direction, strength issues from the back. Have a sunk appearance, be relaxed completely, qi ought to be first."

--Shi Ji Dong, last student of Dong Hai Chuan.

The movements of the spine can, should and will become hidden until the movements cannot easily be seen through clothing and flesh.

Its dramatic and obvious only to learn it.

 

Yes, in BAGUAZHANG, the power issues from the back, just as in Taiji it issues from the kua.

 

Its all the same, bagua came after taiji. There's more reference to it in taiji then there is in bagua.

"In order to manifest your Jin [Fa (emit) Jin], you must know how to coordinate all of the 6 bows. Initiate the movement from the leg bow, control by the waist, store at the spine bow and chest bow, and finally manifest with the arm bows to the target. Wu, Yu Xiang said: "Power is emitted from the spine" (Li You Ji Fa)." - Taijiquan Theory by Yang, Jwing-Ming


"...it's about the movement of the qi. As to the mechanics of the movement of the qi (which I guess could be considered a type of body mechanics), you exert a kind of pressure on the dantian as if it were a balloon filled with qi which you are squeezing, then the qi jumps to the hand or wherever else your intention directs it and back again."

The pressure on the dantian comes from the tailbone (part of the spine) tucking with force jolting/ shocking the dantian (which is squeezed by the diaphragm from above, Huiyun from below) forcing qi out through mingmen point following your intention, (jumping) to the hands/ feet. Getting it back to the dantian can be helped by relaxing huiyun point (perineum) after the strike.

The tailbone initiates it, the spine guides it to the arms, the waist and the yi determine the hand. Same as in kicks only from mingmen it goes down through (huantiao?) to the leg. You really need an open kua to get it in any kick higher then the knees.






edit -- Your testing the water already, I'm just trying to shove you into the pool.

 

"You can fa-jin while holding your arm out at full extension and without perceptibly moving the rest of the body."

No you can not. Thats not fa-jing. That is nothing.

This is what Yang Cheng-Fu writes:

"The waist is the ruler of the body ... Changes in full and empty all come from the rotation of the waist. Therefore it is said that the waist is the most vital area. If we LACK POWER, we must look for the cause in the waist."

Hence: no waist movement, no power, no fa-jing.

In my experience, holding a low stance in push hands takes power from the waist and turns it into a forceful pushing with the legs. There should be a springy tension between the legs, from the subtle squeezing of the qua, but you should never be thinking of forcing your weight from one leg to the other. All you should think of is the turning of the waist and the weight transference - i.e. changes in full and empty - should happen by themselves. If your stance is too low you are putting an unnatural tension into the legs. You will develop stong, muscular legs, but a weak waist, and so will have no real power.

 

Internal Boxing,
you are correct that Fa Jin includes this movement of energy. In some schools they would first teach the internal movement in a soft way in exercises that teach what is called the microcosmic orbit. This essentially moves energy up the spine from the dan tien, and then down the front of the body back to its source, thus creating a circulation.

When this movement can be done smoothly and without strain, it can then be directed to the arms and legs simultaniously and used to transfer the energy outside the body, such as into an opponent.

However, the side to side horizontal force can also be added to this movement. From deep within the centre of your torso it is possible to combine a horizontal and vertical movement of internal force.

There are also other components that can be layerd one on top of the other.
There is plian old compression and release. This where we use the body like a spring. We can add waves, by oscilating the pressures in a sequential manner. We can also add spiral movements into the equation.

Ok dinner is served! will talk soon.

Ta Ta

 

Alien,
Have you seen this clip:

Zhaobao Taiji thread on map

Conn,

That's the best part of circle turning in bagua.

"...The most difficult place for Qi to pass is where Ren and Du Vessels meet - you have to keep the mouth closed and the tongue has to touch upper palate, breathing should be through nose (not like in Long Fist Boxing where after some exercises practitioners have to use mouth to catch the breath); then Qi flows down back to Dantian and completes one full circle - Small Heavenly Circle (Xiao Zhou Tian).

JS: Is there any specific feeling you have when the Small Heavenly Circle opens?

MR.MA: Of course. Once Small Heavenly Circle is opened a lot of saliva appears in the mouth and when you practice you feel as comfortable as if swimming.

JS: Do you need to use any Intent (Yi) to lead Qi flow?

MR.MA: No, you should not think about Qi when you practice. Small Heavenly Circle will open naturally, not intentionally, when your Neigong reaches this level. However your practice has to be supervised by a competent teacher.

...MR.MA: Yes, practitioners often feel that walking exercise is very boring and give it up after some time. However once your Neigong develops, once the Small Heavenly Circle opens, the practice becomes very interesting."

 

I guess there are different elements to fa-jing, such as the very small, almost imperceptible fa-jings that happen while performing slow form, but the best test, in my opinion, for someones capacity to do fa-jing is a basic punch. If you cant use fa-jing to knock the opponents block off, whats the point? If you cant hit a punching mitt with force from a space of a couple of inches, you cant do fa-jing. And anything that lessens your capacity to do this, such as an extremely low stance, is a complete waste of time.

 

I definition I know and use of Fa Jing is Trained/Educated Force.

To me Fa Jing is the mastery of total body movement. That's why it is effortless, you aren't pushing with your shoulders or arms, but potentially with every muscle from the heel, through the waist and to the fingertips.

That's going to move most people!

 

"To me Fa Jing is the mastery of total body movement. That's why it is effortless, you aren't pushing with your shoulders or arms, but potentially with every muscle from the heel, through the waist and to the fingertips."

The whole body power is different, its combined with a strike that emits force, you don't emit on every strike, it becomes natural and you learn to hold it back, changing at the last minute to "normal" strike/push . I've met a few very powerful guys who don't fajin in their strikes, will never learn it, and are quite content with what they have. I've been struck by them and thrown across rooms. I've been hit twice by a guy who can emit a tremendous amount of force. Words can't describe it, your mind can hardly figure out what happened. Its what it is, assuming definitions for these terms seems really self-limiting.

I don't question anyones skill levels here, I've read some great posts from all of you. I just think everyone should work towards explaining whats happening inside themselves or at least know what to look forward too. The broad generalizations aren't helping anyone. It took me years to milk these definitions out of teachers and to understand what was always there written in the books.



Punching and straight strikes are my favorite. Shooting fists, square fists, note that even the guys with extreme power warn against punches to another guys face/skull, open hands are safer. A punching mitt? I sometimes test on a bag, preferably the bottom heavy kicking bags. Although you shouldn't practice hitting anything anyways, the open air will never constrain your strikes within any limits or bounds found in a bag/ object.

Getting low has its purposes, it allows you to get long and use strikes/throws under the waistline of the opponent, attacking their hips, where the upper body can lean and absorb your force there is no give if you attack low. Certainly you don't really need to fajin from there, the whole body force from the legs Brido mentions is usually enough. In yin style bagua in the low stances you use whats called a 'deng li' spiralling force or 'beng li' bursting/ sprouting force. You'll actually find the beng li in a lot of other styles and using the same character. If one can learn to emit force in the low stance it can only help, my 50 year old teacher can still get into the lying step and fajin, so everythings possible.

Its not all about short jins either, the lying step usually uses a long jin to throw.

Put more whipping and softness into it and work on Zhen jin(shocking), combined with subtle lightning quick rotations of the forearms or striking surface and think about wanting what you strike to stay still getting it to disperse inside. Don't know the name but there's the move where one hand is pressing on the inside of the other forearm. Use that with a shocking force on the outside of opponents arm where shoulder muscles end and tri and bi muscle start, on the bone your forearm is going to quickly rotate inward giving a lifting force as well as spreading and dispersing. Just one way to practice the jin.

Found a good description on an old thread:
"In Chen style this force is not only generated from the outer muscles but also from deeper muscle tissue (especially the muscles of spine and diaphragm) and from the energy that can be stored in the rubber-like elasticity of joint tendons/sinews. With correct alignment and movement this force can be built up in muscle/joint groups and transferred cumlatively around the body. It can be released in powerful or even explosive-like movements of considerable, focused force."

--http://www.taichichen.com/chenresourcesindex.htm