Fa jing:an explanation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Putrid, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. embra

    embra Valued Member

    My thinking is that its best to find ways to cultivate/nurture aspects like Fa-jin. They may or may not come out in drills, sparring, real-life encounters/scraps etc. The best we can do is to build a structure for internal and external muscle memory combined with martial basics e.g. guard center-line, tactics, movements, timing, evasion, interception etc.

    In the end "Fa jin" is just a descriptive name to a combined set of qualities which is labelled as such fro simplicity - and does not describe the years of effort of development which produce this as a by-product i.e. Fa-jin will only come as a consequence of other work.

    For external MA folk used to sudden surges of energy, this may be a vehicle to gain interest, but at some point its probably for the best to get beyond this.

    Different IMA have different training tools to get there, but Fa jin is a consequence of the training not a goal IMHO.
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If there are 2 systems that one system tells you if you train long enough (you don't know how long), you will be able to understand Fajin. The other system tells you that if you do the following "drills" daily, you will be able to do Fajin. Which system will you choose?

    The following XingYi Liuhe drills are simple and straight forward that any new students can obtain the Fajin ability within a short period of time. Those are the true TCMA treasure.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePEsgnTMd1c"]Xinyi Liuhe Quan - the Secret Art of Chinese Muslims - YouTube[/ame]
  3. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I would prefer the second one.I was always told it is essential to understand the theory regardless of what you are practicing.There has to be a progressive training methodology and the student should know why he is doing certain drills and the result he can expect after a certain period of time.The first way would indicate to me that the teacher isn't too sure about his method and dosen't fully understand it.
  4. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    He would never try to change what you are learning, just compliment it.
    2 of my main students were the 6 times European Tang Su Do full contact champion and a guy who'd studied Okinawan Karate for 30 years. They were interested in Fajing and getting great power at a very short range, it didn't detract from what they did, just complimented it.
    Nothing to loose mate. :)
  5. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Sounds like a good endorsement.

    Eli is certainly impressive and what he does is quite clearly not the usual push.
  6. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    If you build it up gradually its not that difficult.The worst stage is when you start and stand for five minutes on either side and try and relax.Ten minutes feels like two hours but once you start adding the six directions there is something to occupy the mind and the thirty minute period is soon up.Just add 30 seconds each week and you are soon standing for thirty minutes.
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I have trained longfist for many years. I have to go outside of my longfist system to look for Fajin method. Many people shared the same experience as I do. One guy told his friend that his 2nd teacher's Fajin method had "open his eyes". That comment made his 1st teacher mad big time as if his 1st teacher had kept his eyes closed all those years.
  8. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    So if I get this right, this "casual" movement is a product of body awareness, relaxation, balance and good posture, things that long time martial artists like old-timers karateka have an even greater understanding due to their vast experience trying to use their body efficiently.

    Do you think this "casual" movement can be found only in eastern martial arts and if that's the case why? Is it because their train methodology or the different mechanics they use?
  9. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I think it can be found in any type of human movement,including manual work.The truth is if you let-go and stop trying to force things the body finds a natural way of moving.A lot of removal men are in their fifties and sixties and move heavy objects with far more ease than guys who are in their twenties and appear to be far stronger.
  10. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    As you said before using your karate teacher as an example, finding this natural way of moving a martial artist can somewhat balance the problems in strength, speed and flexibility that aging creates, but in what level?

    I don't know if you have checked out a relatively recent thread about Aunkai..
    In that thread there is a link of Minoru Arukawa's(the founder of the system) interview where he is talking about a 56 years old man who was practioner of Shingan and Shingake ryu, who made him take that different turn in his training.
    He said that this gentleman despite of his age, was and still is able to kick Arukawa's behind very easily and he attributed that to the certain body mechanics that gentleman had honed through his training.
    Body mechanics that as he said aren't affected by age and stay engraved in the practioner's way of moving.

    I am wondering if these mechanics are the same with the ones experient men use with the pass of time to accomplish this "casual" way of moving.
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    yes and no, and no. casual movement is exactly what it sounds like, and it tends to result from focusing on the end goal of the movement rather than the movement itself. if anything, eastern TMA have LESS casual movement than others, overall, because people teach it in a super rigid way and a lot of teachers don't explain anything, which is dumb.
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hey dudes, sorry I'm super knackered and may be totally off topic, but I thought I would add a few pence...

    I'm not sure if all "natural movement" if we can call it that, is equal.

    Fair enough, if your a manual labourer, the more you work, the more your body/mind will adapt to make your movement more efficient. These guys are hella strong, but it's still in essence a reliance on force, not a bad thing and for sure it's real power, but I don't think it's what one would call "internal power" or whatever you want to call it.

    In terms of "natural movement" from and "internal power" perspective, I think it's more to do with natural movement which arrises as a result of conscious awareness of your body, as opposed to concious/subconscious adaptation to repetitive movement.

    I think the difference between the two is that one is solely reliant on power and the other primarily on awareness with the power in reserve, the power being secondary and not always necessary.

    In other words, one with "internal power" can manipulate you so that they can affect your structure without letting you affect theirs, mainly from use of awareness (angles of force and contact points, maybe more). If your structure is affected, one does not need much power to hurt you.

    I have seen Akuzawa allude to this in some interview before, he said something along the lines of "my nervous system is like DSL, yours is like 56k modem" or something like that. Likewise, Sam Chin says "your future is my present" same sort of meaning, and when he moves you, it's almost like he's barely touching you, though if he grabs you, you can feel that he cold rip you to bits. Also, I've played around with some high level women and even though for sure I have a lot more force then them, I had no where to apply it as the angles I had access to were always wrong, and similarly they always had a direct line to my centre and could off balance me quite easily with very little force.

    Also, just as a side note, as far as I recall both Akuzawa and Sam Chin specifically say that the exercises are not about repetition, but about gaining deeper and deeper awareness of the lines of force/angles/contact points/centres within the movements and their interplay with partners (during partner work).

    And now it's bed time...
  13. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Here is the Akuzawa interview I was referring to:


    My quote in the last post was a bit off :D Here is the real thing:

    What he says here is quite interesting too (as is the whole interview):

  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    have you or anyone here trained with Akuzawa? Aunkai seems like an interesting system.
  15. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012
  16. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Being able to move fast and explosively in old age isn't that difficult.I can do it myself and I am 56.The difficult thing is trying to take that type of movement into a real fight and this applies to all people,both young and old.

    When I was training with my instructor this afternoon we were both knocking each other three meters backwards with fa jin but we also agreed that it would be difficult to apply in this manner in a real situation.We also agreed that a far more effective solution would be a good old punch in the head and face as it is easier to apply when under extreme stress.Even that is difficult so you can imagine how difficult it is to apply highly elaborate patterns of movement that are trained rather than inherited.If these elaborate patterns haven't been installed under extreme stress the most likely result is they will be overridden in a real violent confrontation.

    I really enjoy tai chi for what it is but in a real situation would prefer to rely on two or three well honed techniques.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2012

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