Fa jing:an explanation

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Putrid, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Okay, something I need to check before I start arguing - do you claim that there is any supernatural component to these mechanics, or that fa jing is somehow unique to a particular martial art and not available to others?

    Or is it simply terminology you're using to describe good biomechanics (biotensegrity as some call it)?
  2. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    I train with Nasser, at his Studio, Unit 36 Second Floor Faircharm Trading Estate, Evelyn Drive Leicester LE3 2BU. I used to teach, but to hard as I live in the sticks and my security and CP work makes it too hard to be consistent.
  3. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    "Fa jin" is seen in most martial arts, karate ,boxing ,etc.This is what the Chinese refer to as wai jin, or external fa jin.Nei jin,or internal fa jin is something completely different and it is a rare individual who can do this.I have only met one person who could do this,a Chinese master from the Sun Family with 55 years of training behind him.It was delivered on contact with no body movement and felt like an electric shock.Wai jin is quite unpleasant,it really shakes the body violently but nei jin just makes you drop like a stone.
  4. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    the Answer is B however, in my view the 1 inch punch, not the 1 inch punch with a three foot push, is a good way of measuring.
  5. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I know one of Nasser's students,an Asian guy who has a shop in the town.He speaks highly of Nasser.
  6. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    you misspelled "humor".

    Why do English people add the useless "u"?

    And furthermore, why don't the English pronounce the "r" in hard? When did that change?
  7. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Come along, he is very open and will answer anything you throw at him. :)
  8. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    We didn't - it was always there. Americans dropped the 'u' in many cases. Are you under the impression that the English language originated in the USA? :confused:

    We do pronounce it, we just don't roll it like the Scots do. But it's there.
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    lou is trolling. apply peng, lu and an with extreme prejudice and a bit of fa jin and expel him from here.
  10. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I have been meaning to get down there,possibly when he holds a seminar as I practice Sun style and don't really want to change styles,but it is always interesting to see other people's approach.
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    What language is it you are typing? When you have worked that out the rest of it is self explanatory

    Now go away
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I agree and Lou if we ever train together I'd gladly let you be ware (The defender) for some muto dori practice.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  13. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    god damnit i hate you.
  14. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Ok some semantic interpretation requiring some clarification maybe. Yes you are correct in as far as "rotary motion" is most definately NOT a head on collision or yang vs yang in TCC terms. As you are a Physicist I can see why you interpret the words like that.

    However what I am describing (and this is only my words) is largely with reference to Mr Morris's video and some discussion in this thread about changing of position. Redirection with parrying as you point out is largely out of an angular entry, hence you can in very simple Newtonian Mechanics think of planar Force vectors.

    Note:- Evasion is always wisest - if its possible - sometimes its not e.g. head-on face to face with no room - in a lift.

    Lets say in this lift (going beyond Mr Morris's vid i.e. the heavy bag is not static), an opponent suddenly punches at you - or stabs at you - as you are a fencer (I recall?) - this is most likely extrapolating what is realistically possible - but to make the point etc - meeting this head on will be a disaster.

    Inside or outside, the striking stabbing hand can still be evaded - but only with a very small body evasion and weight distribution change that has to be instant - thus planar and height vectors change slightly - 3d vector change - to allow you a fraction of a second to coil into strike him - preferably at a yin point e.g. throat.

    The subsequent coiling is effectively internal orchestration - or internal body mechanics if you want. This can't be seen on a vid - it can be experienced but thats about it. The small evasion is slightly more external.

    The coiling can be thought of as an unleashing of a set of interconnected contracting/expanding springs - that is your body. Combined with minimal weight distribution change and timing (evasion), the resultant coiled internal strike is more akin to Newtonian Torques or moments of forces, rather than plain Newtonian Forces i.e. 3 changing vector products constantly corkscrewing with some swerve i.e. the aim is to get the opponent to spin off your contact, as you slip of theirs - until you reach their strike point e.g. yin point - throat as described before.

    Some folk e.g. external and/or internal MA folk may call it Fa-jin - maybe a lot simpler than Newtonian Mechanics, or even wai-jin that Putrid was talking about - I'd be interested to know some more about this Putrid - how do you guys develop/cultivate this in Sun TCC?

    However, the words I have used are just that - words. Analysing this type of motion and generation of energy is not simple - and I suspect would seriously challenge Newtonian Mechanics (through Motion Capture?) beyond the external movement. Assuming external motion data capture completion, setting up partial differential equations to analyse the resultant Vector Calculus could be a lifetime's work i.e. simplistic Newtonian Mechanics probably would not be of much use - but hey - give it a go.

    Assuming the minutae of internal sinews, muscle tissue contraction/expansion and coiling could be captured - somehow - no idea how. The Newtonian model would just become even more complex.

    However describing IMA via Newtonian mechanics is a whole load better than the bodge of Chi-spouting "quantum mechanics" pseudo science that sometimes gets spouted here.

    Bottom line:- IMA if trained for real can (but not guaranteed) result in real Martial results.

    Personally I find fa-jin not particularly interesting as Youknowwho pointed out - just getting your hit in is the more important aspect than absolute power - but better still - don't get hit at all (not easy in the lift vs knifeman mind you) - and get multiple hits on him.

    Blooming heck, I might have spouted quite a bit of old tosh myself there....
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I think most external MA folk either don't get to an internal aspect at all, or they latch onto some "internal" aspect e.g. Fa jin, particularly as they get older and joints/energy/power/stiffness changes, and/or they find IMA more explicitly.
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Of course if you have trained any system long enough, you will figure out how to Fajin. Do you have just few drills that you can teach to your beginner students so they can do Fajin within 3 months? Not many MA systems can come up "a set of Fajin drills".

    The "nothern Shaolin longfist system" that I have trained does not have that "set of Fajin drills".
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  17. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    embra wrote
    San ti shi combined and six directions force.Its almost the same as Yiquan's combat posture drills mainly down to Wang Xiangzhai and Sun Lutang having the same Xingyi teacher.In fact one Sun style teacher desribed the taiji form as moving zhan zhuang.I practice more san ti shi than anything else,often more than two hours a day but broken up into thirty minute sessions provided I have enough time.Once the body starts to tense its best to stop as it becomes counter productive.If you don't practice san ti shi the Sun taiji form is pretty pointless and serves no real purpose.San ti shi is the Sun Family fundamental and more important than anything else in the style.
  18. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I think this is true.Sometimes people are forced to find a more efficient way of moving.My former karate instructor is in his mid sixties and his movement looks completely different to how it was in his twenties,for more natural and in harmony with the body.
  19. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    holy crap! that's a lot of santi shi!!!!!!!!!
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    this tends to happen a lot with karate stylists (and a fair amount of KF people). i generally describe it as having "casual" movement, and try to develop it, myself, as i consider it quite frankly wasteful to ignore it until you HAVE to do it because your body is falling apart. relaxation, of which i got a bit through taiji training also plays a big part on it; the more relaxed you can be, particularly when NOT moving, the sooner you'll stop fooling around in an EMA and actually start moving properly.

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