Evolution and Intelligent design

its amazing how many times 1 person can make himself look a fool in a single thread

 

Wow, you just proved my point. You are uneducated, unread and generally.... silly. You really need to do some research.

Do me a favor and tie in polio to the small pox that almost erradicated the Native populations during the first contact periods between 1500 and 1700, not to mention each subsequant outbreak as Europeans moved into new areas of North and South America.

PS. And I see you STILL have nothing to say about the influences on the Bible, the impact of the two kingdoms OR even explained about the double stories.

 

Going way back to the genetic mutation thing, in case someone hasn't already mentioned it: sickle cell and malaria?

 

Not true.

The way the Polio vaccine works (like many vaccines) is that you put some of the inactive virus into your body. You're immune system kicks in and produces a load of antibodies to get rid of it. Now that you have more of these antibodies floating around in your bloodstream, any attack by the real thing is quickly dealt with.

These antibodies would still be made by your body if you hadn't had the vaccine but it takes time for the process to occur and the disease gets a chance to gain a foothold. By provoking your immune system to produce a load up front, you significantly reduce the amout of time that's required to produce enough to get rid of the virus.

This immune response exists in us because we inherited it through evolution.

 

Dolphin, I already discussed how you can take one sick person and they can infect an entire continent. Or even a rat carrying a flea can kill hundreds of thousands of people.
Polio isnt gone... there are still cases of it in the world. If you take someone who hasnt recieved the vaccination it is not impossible for them to contract Polio.

.......Spreading sickness and disease isnt new. Ever hear of lepers? Psalsy?
Epidemic of a virus that kills or incapacites people isnt suddenly stopped by "evolution" This is where real science makes real medicine to hault the onslaught. People getting sick and suffering have not been able to wait on evolution. There is no proof that Polio vaccinations were the result of evolution, more likely epidemics wiping out people were prodding quick action.

.......Look at AIDS. no one is getting a good imune system to fight this. Insted we're trying to produce medicine to prevent, cure, and keep at bay.
We all agree epidemics can be devestating and infected people need treatment and succeptable people need prevention. This is obvious. Nothing proves evolution is a key to medicine. KNOWN history, that is the last 8,000 years give or take. This is what plays a key in medicine. Going back millions of years or hundredes of thousands of years isn't real in finding any constant in medicine. Do you know what a constant is in science?

A constant is necessary to prove things in science. Changes do occur. The sun comes up. You say the sun is the constant. It becomes night. There was change due to the earth spinning and darkness is there insted of sunlight. Ok the sun rises the next morning, and has done so every morning since history has been recorded. So we can be fair and say the sun is a constant.
this is just a very simple quick explaination but you can replace the sun with something else as long as you can study the original constant then compare changes due to what you add or remove. Water could be your constant. Mixing salt into hot water, then mixing oil into the water could be your experiment.

Nothing from over 8,000 to 10,000 years ago is a CONSTANT no one has recorded any history of this. Cave art is not a constant because we do not know the precise date, not the day, not the month, not the year, not even 10,000 years. If another scientist told you a certain cave painting was 5,000 years newer or older you wouldnt give it a second thought, but because I said it you want to say "no everything in science is 100% right all the time" proven false.

.......dolphin dolphin dolphin.....the second chapter in Genesis is elaborating on the 1st one. Notice the use of the word And. The first chapter is telling us about Christ, the creation of the earth and man, etc. The 2nd chapter is going into more detail. It's the same story. Did you know there wasnt a Bible before Christ? There were scrolls to study, books... Like the book of Enoch. See, the first 5 books of Moses are called the Law, then there's prophets and poems and letters and wittness. The books "taken out" were actually just books NOT ADDED INSTED though some versions add these to the Bible.
Look at it this way, the years before Moses, there wasnt even the book of Genesis.. the years before Christ there was no New Testament. Thousands of years here.

...Let me ask you this dolphin, if Egypt or Isreal or Canada changed the Bible who did it advantage? Who would gain advantage to change the Bible. Keep in mind the Bible is the number one Earth BEST SELLER more than the Koran, more than the I-Ching, more than every science book combined, I mean every OTHER science book, because sciencetists today can tell you the power of faith is proven to help heal people. If the Bible is the all time best seller do you think maybe somone would want to keep a record of the real contents of it, being multi-millions of people harbor the words precious? If you read the Bible you see it speaks against even a multitude who claim they support and endorse and teach it, yet they really are in the status of great danger.

...medi you did correct me on when the "origin of the species was written compared to the discovery of the polio vacciene.. I got the year wrong but the vaccine being created still has nothing to do with the origin of the species, it didnt teach anything about developing a vaccine for polio.

I am meeting alot of very smart people here. I just wish you would concentrate your efforts on other aspects of science. If you didnt look back past 2,000 years you could study medicine. Think about the cures and treatments that were sucessful long before 1800. I know technology has increased with microscopes and cadaver study, and CAT scans and laser surgery. Basically this is saying the need for cures and treatment, not the study of the way back past, which cant be studied with precision. If someone died in the winter in the year 403BC and they had Polio, we could use that information and try to see how their body reacted to it and their family history and culture history. You dont even know if the prescence of differing gasious clouds were upon the earth 2 million years ago affecting the atmosphere, the temperature of the earth, the relation in miles between the earth and the sun and other planets, the impact of gravity at that time, the pressures inflicted due to variations.



....You take an infected female mosquito and it bites you.. that is where maliaria comes from I believe? sickle cell? what are you saying about sickle cell?

...Moony, you can say scientist X wrote about topic B in book Z but you cant prove anything yourself about evolution. You draw conclusions from what others have expressed. You have not proved things to yourself or you would know more than the real scientists. Now you want to say Im wrong without proving anything to me. First prove evolution for yourself, this will consume your life and you wont be able to show any product. You can mention a type of medicine or disease in history and talk about what doctors have done, but if the theory of evolution never came to light, do you think we wouldnt have doctors looking for cures today? Honestly! of course we would, the proof is there were doctors before the theory of evolution, because we want to help each other

 

Grow up Radok. What makes you qualified to pass judgement on what is and isn't Christian? There are plenty of Christian scientists who see no necessary contradiction between evolution and their faith. Don't label all Christians with your ignorance.

Eh??? My brother works in Queens University as a Physicist what are you talking about? and you think the theory of evolution is 50 years old... hehe. With these kind of statements you've upgraded your status from fruitloop to muppet.

We already covered this mankind is included the category APE so no humans didn't come from another APE because humans already are APES. However, IT IS LOGICAL to conclude mankind evolved from earlier species just like every other species on the planet when all the evidence points to that.

So people with Down syndrome are 'de-evolved'... wow, what a callously ignorant comment to make.

What you don't seem to understand about evolution barmmy is that it does not possess a will i.e. genes do not strive to arrange in new beneficial ways this simply randomly occurs due to miscopying. As a result Downs syndrome is evidence for evolution as it is evidence that genes are not replicated with 100% fidelity. Its these errors in copying that make evolution possible. Most times genetic mutations are harmful but once in a while they are beneficial.

After a quick search I have found that pretty much all historians agree that 'epidemic disease was by far the leading cause of the population decline of the American indigenous peoples after 1492'. Your wrong again barmmy for god sake do some research before posting your next round of drivel...

This is the richest thing I've heard from you yet! The people who are being good enough to reply to you at least understand what they are talking about and have done research into the topic. Your just parroting long refuted creationist arguments without even having a grasp of things like the scientific method. As such it's quite clear that you don't understand plenty of the things your discussing like chromosomes or how they are copied from one generation to the next and yet you have the cheek to tell someone else that they draw conclusions from what others have expressed!!! Barmmy scientific data is peer reviewed and its a cumulative endeavour of course people draw on others research thats how progress can take place... have you proved that the earth is round? And I dont mean looked at pictures or read others arguments. I mean have you conducted in-depth research on the topic and built a spaceship or satellite and had a look at earth from space? Im guessing the answer is NO! yet I imagine you do accept the earth is round... right? Or for that matter have you learnt to read ancient hebrew and gone and done research into what the earliest preserved version of the bible say? If not how do you know everyone hasn't just lied to you or got it wrong? Oh no barmmy...

So far you've demonstrated ignorance in the following areas:

History.
Logic.
Science: all areas.
English Language.
Common Sense.

Keep going. Your certainly doing a good job at convincing people creationism is nonsense .

 

The Bible does not support evolution, period. So you can believe the Bible, or evolution. People that believe the Bible are Christians.

 

You won't be hearing from barmmy any time soon due to his many MANY TOS violations on this thread

 

I always rebuffed creation by pointing out that the only people who believed it are christians. If there was any evidence for it, then there would be non christian supporters

 

and yet the vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Are they not real Christians?

 

Good examples there. See comments a bit below.

Bad CK! Don't insult the muppets! They brought joy to many children, and besides Animal is uber cool.

Sickle cell anemia is in itself an unfortunate condition expressed when a person inherits two recessive alleles coding for the condition. However some with the heterozygous combination is actually better off than some one that is homozygous dominant for the normal allele. Malaria is caused by the Plasmodium parasite that likes nothing better than to breed in red blood cells, which is where the mosquito fits in but only as a vector, for the rest of this the mosquito counts for nothing.

So the red blood cell is the place that the plasmodium goes to once it's inside the human body, in there it multiplies untell the cell bursts, and the new plasmodiums go off to infect other red blood cells. This is where sickle cell comes in, the condition derives it's name from the shape the blood cells have, sickle shaped. It's an odd mutation in that it's not co-dominant but even having one of the allele's for sickle cell causes red blood cells to be sickle shaped, but not all of them. A sickle shaped red blood cell is not going to be infected by a plasmoduim parasite, it's the wrong shape. So a person that is heterozygous has a distinct advantage, and bacause only some of their red blood cells are sickle shaped their are more than capable of having a normal life and will probably not know they are a sickle cell carrier until they have a child with the condition.

The sickle cell allele evolved as a way of protecting people from the malaria parasite. It's a concept that any intelligent open minded person understands.

I have a BSc, that's a Bachalours in Science. I am a scientist by deffinition of my qualification. To say that people have to prove anything for themselves will prevent any form of scientific progress, and that includes medicine. I know enough of the evidence with regards to evolution that i don't have a problem with the Theory. If you have some contradictory evidence i will be more than happy to take a gander, as I'm sure all scientifically minded people would. And the evidence must be presented in a thorough fashion unlike the slip-shot, haphazard that seems to be the golden child of creationists. You evidence can either be a counter to the Evolutionary Theory (showing a clear and well understanding of it) or relavent supporting materials for the creation myth of your choice.

Evolutionary theory has allowed Dr's and researchers to understand the subtle interplay between infecting agents and our immune responces. Thus allowing them to treat diseases better.

Now please take a new ticket and rejoin the queue....

Moony

 

That's ok. We've got enough evidence for it without the bible.

Your my new best friend!

Moony

 

Hopefully after all this patented nonesense, this thread can settle down and start pushing up daisies.

 

R.I.P. thread .

 

Whew, he's gone - now we can admit that we were just making up all that evolution nonsense. Some of you nearly had me convinced - some of that fake evidence was genius! What a great wind-up!

Just kidding....