Evidence of shin conditioning dangers

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Socrastein, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? Toned is usually a very vague word, and its many connotations are usually nonsense.

    Do you mean isolation builds more muscle than anything else? Cause you'd be dead wrong.

    Do you mean isolation burns more fat than anything else? You'd be wrong again, whether you're referring to spot reduction (work the arms to burn fat on the arms, which is a myth) or whether you're referring to totally calories consumed, because large compound movements using multiple muscles to move higher loads certainly burn more calories, helping to achieve a lower body fat percentage and the "toned" look.

    Do you mean isolation helps shape the muscle better, making it longer and more lean? Cause muscles only get bigger or smaller, they don't get longer, they don't get shorter, so if that's what you meant, again you're quite mistaken.

    Do you mean that isolation makes your muscles harder than anything else? Cause again, muscles get bigger or smaller, but you don't make them harder, through isolation nor anything else. How hard or soft a muscle feels depends on how much body fat you have covering it up.

    I can't really think of a context in which the above phrase isn't simply false. Perhaps you can tell me what way you meant it, and perhaps you'll be very careful about using the word tone (read: don't use it, ever) in the future.
     
  2. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion Valued Member

    No one ever said BBers were strong, training for BBing and athletic performance are very different, you want strength you look at powerlifters and olypmic lifters.

    Also...a half squat is a squat to parallel...nothing like a calf raise..
     
  3. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    Socrasteine first off, dont EVER presume to tell me what it's okay for me to do and not to do. Second off, many of you guys know me and i'm totally open to opinions and all but i'm getting tired of how your handling yours. And third off how about going to a gym or some place to train instead of only looking up articles online? :D

    When dealing with fitness toned is a very appropriate word to use. Plain and simple. If you don't know what it means and you claim to know about fitness then your a total egghead. You've just taken my one phrase out of context in order to form a pointless argument against me. It seems that you like telling people what to do, since your trying to tell your instructors how to train to begin with. When I said "isolation gets you more toned than anything else" I wasn't talking about than any other type of exercice. I was talking about the benefits of solely isolation. I came here to offer my opinion to help your questions Socras, so don't gang up against me and tell me that im wrong about stuff i've been doing for years.
     
  4. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    Half squats can be a sort of generic term. There are variations of half squats. Check out any information you can find on Hindu Squats/their variations. And its a very common miconception that BBers are strong, thats all I was saying.
     
  5. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion Valued Member

    What do you mean by tone then? Its just that when the general population says "toned" they usually are refering to all the points that soc brought up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2006
  6. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    Toned as in muscle defenition.
     
  7. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion Valued Member

    Ok, but muscle definition is a combination of low BF% and muscle, isolations may help build muscle but they wont help you lose any fat to show definition.
     
  8. wazzabi

    wazzabi sushi eater

    socrastein:
    i do agree with you that tone is an obsolete term, and nowadays, has no real meaning. but bodybuilders sculp themselves with isolation so they can work the muscles 1 at a time, causing controlled hypertrophy. by controlling it 1 at a time, they can make it look better. for example, sensible guys like us stick with compound weight lifts like squats & bench presses, which work more than 1 muscle group. however, these exercises often work 1 muscle group more than the other, like how the bench press works the chest more than the triceps (generally). if a bodybuilder wants his triceps to look as ripped as they possibly can, this may not be enough for him, so he will do something like tricep extensions to work on just the triceps, so they can get the look he wants. of course this won't really make him stronger, but he will look "toned" as kenpoguy says. and he's right on the fact that guys that are smaller than them can be stronger, given that they do more compound lifts than the bodybuilders do :D
     
  9. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    reply...

    I never said anything about losing fat :p that was Socrasteins choice of wording I beleive...
     
  10. wazzabi

    wazzabi sushi eater

    that's true. i forgot to point out that definition also depends on % body fat.
     
  11. wazzabi

    wazzabi sushi eater

    funny how this tread turned from shin conditioning to "muscle tone"

    how did that happen? :rolleyes:
     
  12. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion Valued Member

    You said tone=definition...wouldnt you define..definition as low BF% and muscle??
     
  13. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    reply...

    It can be. But the person won't always have a whole lot of fat on their arms to begin with. It depends on the person.
     
  14. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    People took my words out of context :bang:
     
  15. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    I think the following stated what you meant nicely.

    And I'm sorry your plain wrong. If muscle definition immediately implied strength. The cut bodybuilder will always be stronger than the strongman competitor. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2006
  16. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    reply...

    Where do you people get this from? No offenses met, but I never once said toned meant strength, and i've never once said many of the things i've been accused of in this thread. Again it keeps getting taken out of context or reworded :p

    Let me review where this thread went terribly wrong. The original poster wanted to prove themselves "wiser" than their instructor and wanted to tell them how to train. He/she wanted us to back him/her up by providing articles,comments, etc. I replied with my own expereince and opinions on different forms of excercising. Basically to sum up everything I said, everybody is different and something different works for everyone. I've never said any single form of training is superior to another. Sure, i've gone over plenty of different methods which my students, and many others feel to be very effective but I never said any one was the "right way" to go. I never said isolation training was the best. I never said running was bad. On the contrary, I said it was good(except that not everybody has the time/or other reasons to commit to it). I said resistance training is very effective(which is the principle behind thh Bowflex), because it is. I'd like to see one person here disagree that pushups are bad to do. When you do a pushup, guess what your using? Your own body resistance. Any resistance machine is that but with the option to adjust resistance levels. How many posters here have actually continuosley used the bowflex? Or contiunously(as in a daily/weekly basis) work out on gym machines? Alot of you bash these things without ever trying them. And even if you try them, chances are if they're not working it's YOU thats doing something wrong. I'll say it one more time. What works for one person won't work for all. But just because it doesn't work for them doesnt mean its innefective. Some of the posters here have spent too much time reading online articles as opposed to actually doing real training(Not everyone, only a couple of posters).

    In conclusion the subject matter has drifted from Socrastein being a wise guy and talking about shin conditioning to bashing poor old kenpoguy here :p In order to bash me/challenge my statements, what i've said has been continousely taken out of context. Sort of nervewracking after enough posts :bang: The only person here who actually seems to be discussing the topic is wazzabi as opposed to arguing. So, muchos gracis :)
     
  17. ItalianStallion

    ItalianStallion Valued Member

    Accusing people you dont know of not doing 'real' training is stupid, and based on nothing substantial.
     
  18. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon

    My comment wasn't directed towards you Itallion Stallion. Socrastein makes it clear that he/she doesn't know too much about this particular subject. Despite this Socrastein procedes to want to tell her instructors how to train and me what to say. I didn't mean to accuse anyone in particular of not training for real, but its easy to catch that drift by reading some of the posts on this thread. But for the record, no offense meant to you Stallion.
     
  19. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    But you yourself said this a while ago.

    Then you got even more vague when you said this in reply to Italian Stallion.

    :confused: Toning (getting muscle definition as you define it) by using isolation exercises on the arms is impossible just as doing situps or crunches or any other ab exercise will lose you those love handles.

    And then you call somebody an egghead when he doesn't know what "tone" is. And you put "isolation" , "tone" and "strength" in one paragraph, hence the confusion. What's even funny here is that "muscle tone" is more closely related strength capacity than muscular definition (you're %BF can be greater than the other person's but it does not mean that the leaner guy can lift more. But take note that tone does not immediately equal muscle strength because factors like a person's CNS).

    :eek: This remark would have been okay if you said this after a few pages or so and when about 50 MAPpers have posted their opinions. ;)
     
  20. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Kenpoguy

    If you carefully read my response to you, you'll see that I addressed my points to you all as questions. I first asked you to elaborate on what you meant by toned. Apparently I'm an idiot because I don't know what you meant by a word that has multiple contexts when used by different people, but nonetheless I was looking for clarification specifically so I didn't take your comment out of context.

    I then asked "Did you mean ______?" referring to 4 seperate connotations of the word that I have heard in the past. In order to save some time I preempted your possible responses, in the form of "Well if you did mean this, here's my reply..." because as you well know, a couple posts and responses can span the course of a couple days on an internet forum.

    I fail to see how this is pulling your words out of context and attacking you. I concluded my post by saying that I can't think of any other ways the word toned is used, and I asked again that you clarify what you meant by it. I then suggested that you may want to use a less vague term in the future. It was a fairly good suggestion I think, because I'm sure if you had simply said "muscle definition" people would have had a better idea what you meant.

    Now that I'm clear on exactly what you did mean though, your statement was still wrong I'm afraid. Isolation is not the best way to achieve muscle definition. As was already said, muscle definition is a combonation of low body fat percentage and muscle hypertrophy. If you have big muscles and very little fat, you'll have very defined muscles. The fatter you are and the less muscle you have, the less definition you will have.

    However, as I already said in my initial response, isolation is neither best for hypertrophy nor is it best for losing fat, so isolation is not the best thing for muscle definition.

    Oh, and on a side note, I read lots and lots of articles and books on health and nutrition, and I also find enough time to train at the YMCA 5 days a week. I workout Mon, Wed, Fri and have Muay Thai/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu Tue and Thu. My friend Richard and I also toss the other people around like rag dolls in BJJ, even people who are 200+ lbs. Richard and I are the only two people in that class who strength train solely with large compound movements. We deadlift, we clean, we do deep olympic squats, we bench, we row, etc. One guy in our class, Rick, has a bowflex, and he's had it for a few years and he trains on it a few times a week. The guy is about 3 inches taller than me and Richard and I throw him around like he's a soggy muffin. Whenever I see our other classmates in the gym, they're doing curls, and kickbacks, and benching with the smith machine, and doing leg presses, and lat pulldowns, and calf raises, and more curls. It doesn't surprise me that these guys who weigh the same if not more than me and Richard get completely dominated.

    Anecdotal, I know I know. Yet it's hard to attribute our significant strength advantage over everyone else to a mere coincidence. We're the only ones who lift heavy, and we're the only ones who can flip people around on the mats like it's nothing.
     

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