Hi everyone. I'd like to discuss your EDCs and how it helps your CQC situations. Various areas allow for various weapons to be carried, such as knives being no longer than (x) inches, and guns with (x) rounds with (x) extra bullets and so on and so forth. I'd also like to talk about your "quickdraw" plans. In any good school, one should be trained to react with a certain movement or set of movements that would theoretically put one in an advantageous position. Whether it's undoing the strap on your gun holster or instinctively putting your hands up, what do you train yourself to do as a flinch reaction to someone threatening you? I realize my second question can be answered in a variety of ways, so suffice it to say that if someone you're speaking to at a gathering/party/work place is perceived to be aggressive with clenched fists/teeth and a raised voice, how do you respond? Or perhaps chin dropped, right foot slipped behind themselves so their body is bladed, and their right fist is clenched behind their leg. If you see this happen, what do you do? Do you notice this kind of thing? And if you do, what would you do, or what would you suggest one does? And I'm not new to forums, so if you find a need to throw around inflammatory remarks, I can troll like the best of them. However, if you disagree, please, allow the discussion and debate to flow.
An interesting post Barnacles. MAP is a British hosted forum and as such threads about weapon usage are rare and can provoke very different stances on weapon use. If you do not use a weapon, carry a weapon etc could I ask that you do not post in this thread. We have had a number of pro and anti carry threads on MAP in the past and they haven't always been friendly. The rights or wrongs of gun carriage isn't the point of this thread and I will moderate the thread heavily to that effect.
I had no idea that this forum was out of the UK. I'm in Freedomland aka America, so in some places, guns are as freely available as water, lol. I have no intentions of inciting any form of flame war with anyone. In fact, asking people who don't wield weapons to not post here would only make sense if literally everyone here is from a place in the world where guns are not readily available. I live in a very progressive state that prevents people from easily carrying a gun of any kind. There are other weapons though, ranging from knives, to batons, to kubatons, to a roll of coins, to the infamous pocket sand, and so forth. I want to know how people train to respond to a perceived threat, and what, if anything, do the people of MAP carry in the event of a perceived threat. Also, not every situation requires the drawing of a weapon, which is the answer I would hope most people here give me.
I carry nothing in case of a threat. I rely on my reading of the body language of those around me to make threat assessments and I adjust my behaviour, posture, positioning and alertness level accordingly.
Would you be legally justified in drawing a weapon on someone who stands aggressively, in your state? In a lot of places wouldn't there be a brandishing or menacing charge waiting for people who train to unsnap their holster as a flinch response?
Given the nature of how and when we flinch, if you're unsnapping your holster as a flinch response then you are unsnapping it too late as events have already progressed to a level and range where you are looking at protecting your head and grappling/striking (and possibly weapon retention) rather than being in a good position to fire.
When talking about weapons and their carry, one must be very much aware of the legal system in which they operate, and the capability of its guardians to enforce it. For example, i have worked in parts of the world where even though the law prohibits the carrying of certain items, there is no capable guardianship. One might therefore be persuaded to carry a weapon for their own protection regardless. In the UK however, the laws are very much against the carrying of items that could be used as weapons - or indeed the carrying of anything at all (even a used tissue) with intent to use it as a weapon - even defensively. If an item is employed for defensive purposes in the heat of the moment however, that's a different story (i recall an incident several years ago where i was on the other side of a door that someone was trying to kick in, stark naked, with only a glass bottle of ketchup to protect myself!). Gladly, our police force in the UK is generally well-equipped, professional, and thoroughly scrutinised. Though there are still many individuals who carry items that are meant for utility, but have some defensive value should they be accessed during a physical engagement. With regards your question on response and drawing, there are a number of situations that may require a person to access a weapon. Rather than get tied up in a debate about specific techniques and triggers, i think it is more important to focus on the criteria that allows us to facilitate a successful draw. Generally, if proximity to the target does not permit a sufficient window for a draw, a window can be created though the use of one of three things:- 1. Evasive movement. 2. Distraction of the target. 3. Offensive pressure (ie. Hit them first). It is worth noting that the more concealed a weapon is, the more difficult it is to access in a pinch. Also, trying to access and deploy a weapon one-handed, after being tackled to the floor, and punched repeatedly in the head, is definitely not where you wan to be. Hence being pro-active instead of reactive is the way to go. Finally, with regards accessing a weapon in response to threatening body language, that is very incident specific and relies on a number of other factors other than posture and facial expressions. It is perhaps also worth noting that training going for your gun as a "flinch response" will hugely escalate a situation and may cause more problems than it will solve.
If someone is deliberately concealing their hands in the lead up to a fight, I think you can make the case that an average person would reasonably fear there's a weapon in it. Especially if you've made that concern obvious to the person. If I don't have any cues that make me suspect the other person is armed, I'll normally not start a draw. If someone is stomping a downed opponent who is no longer in the fight, or I find someone in a building where he or she would have to break in, then those are exceptions. I always have a handgun and a knife. The knife is pretty much exclusively used for mundane tasks but I do train to use it to strip an opponent off of my gun; as such it stays on my support side so my strong side can stall long enough to deploy the knife. I haven't had to use it in a real fight but the kimura has also worked pretty well for retention in training for me. But as has been said already, the important part of the draw (as with all steps up in the level of force) is perceiving the threat and deciding on your response in time to preempt it. That's not always possible but lethal force encounters are decided in seconds. Most people can't draw consistently in under two seconds. Add indecision, a fluid threat and movement to the equation, and many people fail to draw at all. Training to draw (or not) against unscripted opponents (who attack or not in a variety of ways), while moving offline, and employing techniques to create distance is important if you intend to use a handgun defensively. Same thing as empty hand, really.
Something to note, sometimes concealed and holstered is the most effective place for the weapon. If you have a weapon in your hand but are not justified in using it, it's a liability to you. Either because you'll have to fight over it or answer as to why you escalated the situation, or worse, wrongly shot someone.
I've got a question about edc weapons, what's your threshold for use, is a social fistfight in a 'safeplace' the right time to pull a knife / gun, people do die in fist fights, but generally they don't, does drawing prematurely escalate the situation? PS I assume the best time to decide thresholds is weeks/months/years In advance, not during the situation.
Define social fistfight. Are you referring to the rare beast (in adulthood) of mutually consensual violence where both parties agree to settle their differences by fighting?
A reasonable person wouldn't expect to be killed or maimed in a simple fistfight, so employing any lethal force would be inappriate and usually a crime in the US. If there's fifteen of them, or the person is a great deal larger than you, or is choking you, or has stated that he'll kill you and appears to have the means to do so, or is attempting to access your weapon these things may make it appropriate to shoot or stab an unarmed person. Basically if a reasonable person would be in fear for his or her life, it's appropriate to endanger or take your attacker's life. Whether you use a gun, a car, or your hands is irrelevant. At least that's the way the law reads in my area. Normally if I draw, I've already decided what will cause me to shoot. If that decision hasn't been made, either you're deciding late or drawing early. And for civilians deploying a weapon in reactive self defense (I.e. Not law enforcement drawing a weapon in expectation of an assault during an arrest or detention), normally the draw shouldn't happen until you're actively trying to put rounds on target. Surprise is your friend. Unless you're one of those obstinate open carry guys. Then you have deliberately tipped your hand and are ambush target number 1 if things go down.
Nope, sorry I'll define that better, I mean in a public (often social) setting, where someone trys to assault you, but different then a mugging as its not for direct monetary gain, often its for percieved social standing reasons, and not an asocial assault (the classic serial killer / psychopath type event). It could include consensual match fights, but let's face it, there rare, and in most cases only one side of the fight is actually consenual, its just the victim has been unable to navigate their way out of it.
A lot really depends on where you live, where you frequent, and what your goals are. In a fairly safe rural areas where a person is careful about where and when they go places, there isn't a lot of cause to carry. Avoidance and awareness skills work very well. In more more dangerous areas (especially unfamiliar urban or in the wilderness), concealed (or even open) carry may be an option. For a wilderness scenario, I'd prefer a heavier pistol (like a .45 auto) that could be worn on a belt and covered with a jacket (I would recommend practicing drawing back the jacket and drawing the pistol to prevent it from getting caught up). For urban or local carry, it is necessary to be able to carry comfortably and securely. A heavy frame revolver with short barrel in a fitted IWB holster can provide good concealment and ease of carry (along with decent firepower... like a .38). One should consider leaving the hammer on an empty chamber in case. One should practice being able to draw it smoothly. I have never been a 'quick draw' kind of person. Yes, it's fun, and yes, it's a valuable skill. My focus has always been on awareness and avoidance first and then on de-escalation. For drawing, my practice focuses on smooth and accurate over speed. The basic 'rule of thumb' since day one has been "Only draw if you intend to fire" - meaning that it doesn't get drawn for an empty threat and remains holstered unless the awareness and avoidance and de-escalation have failed. That said, basic firearms retention skills are very important, often covering the handgun (training or otherwise) with your hand for a quicker/smoother draw and/or to make sure it is safe. Basic awareness and care in body positioning (use of the 'interview stance' and in keeping your firearm away from the threat of being grabbed and etc.). As far as handguns go, I can legally carry, but rarely do. As far as knives goes... I generally don't carry one.
I was under the impression that this wasn't a concern on any sort of reasonably modern revolver. I used to have a single action model that this was definitely a concern about (per the manufacture). Is this still a concern on many revolvers made in the past 40 years or so?
Smith & Wesson Revolvers used to contain a hammer block, I'm not sure if the latest generation (with the trigger locks) still incorporate them though.
Good question. Most likely, it's not an issue, but I guess I tend to err on the side of caution. I really don't see myself getting into a situation where 6 bullets will be that much better than 5 that I absolutely need to have all chambers filled. Who knows... maybe that'll catch up to me one day! That said, I have seen an automatic (Colt 1911) go off when it was being drawn from a shoulder holster (the hammer was down, but there was one in the pipe)... scary. I am a big fan of the S&W Model 10 revolvers... which I believe you are correct in noting they have a hammer block.
Pardon my miscommunication. Now, some people certainly are allowed to carry quite a variety of weapons. As was said earlier by a moderator, most of the users here are from the UK where nearly everything is against the law concerning self defense. Make no mistake, when I say "quick draw" I don't specifically mean "drawing of a weapon," but simply how you have trained instinctively to respond to a sudden threat to your well being. For example: someone grabs your arm from your blindside, someone you're talking to starts screaming and throws their hands in the air, so on and so forth. After all, the difference between "ring" and "street" is training for a fight you ARE expecting, and training for a fight you AREN'T expecting. Perhaps! Good job catching my poor choice of words! Thanks for the wisdom. It's more or less putting a set of techniques "on speed dial," but the techniques that I put on "speed dial" may not be what you think are appropriate, so it's better to avoid that conversation altogether haha. I do like your final paragraph as well. My dad has gone through multiple instances where he has had to draw a gun to disperse a crowd, scare away men with knives, and has even had to shoot someone who tried to push him off of a roof! Of course, those were his situations, specific to him. In general though, say you're instructing someone on self defense, do you suggest carrying a knife or kubaton/fistload? Yes. If someone deploys the "sucker punch stance" by drawing one leg back and hiding that same hand, you have no idea what they might pull out, because from standing square to standing bladed/semi-bladed, that right there is nearly a boxing stance in and of itself. They could draw a knife or they could even prepare to kick you in the stomach, depending on your proximity at the time. That's why social cues are so important. I can't seem to find the video but it's a video of a handgun instructor "Instructor Zero" going on about developing the quick draw. Putting coins in the pocket of your jacket so the jacket doesn't get stuck on the hammer of the gun, how to properly "throw" the sides of your jacket over the gun so you can smoothly grab the gun and hold it securely, etc etc. People have been making it a science for a long time. The knowledge is out there haha. That's true. But as someone else said, it's a split second decision. It's a tough call in any situation. That's why in any MA school I truly believe that talking about the plain and simple advantage of being a good and friendly person that can just have fun is such an asset. Things like "do all you have said you would," and "stand by your beliefs," as well as "help your fellow man," can keep a lot of fights from happening, just like "speak softly and carry a big stick" can as well. Another thing, is how some people simply don't react to weapons being brandished. I am working at the Renaissance Festival in my area, selling fully functional combat blades. Just this past weekend I was reminded of how I must cut a piece of card stock before handing a blade to a customer, even if I hand them 5 different blades, I need to show them how sharp the blades are over and over again. Even still, I handed a blade to a 20-ish year old boy and he immediately began chopping on his palm with the knife to test its sharpness. People are stupid and don't realize how serious a cut can be, even if it's not fatal. That's why I believe that weapons are only meant to be felt, not seen, and therefore only drawn when you are without a shadow of a doubt in fear for your life. You wouldn't stab a coworker that's mad at you for not trading shifts with you, nor would you shoot a classmate when he failed a test, and is mad that you passed it. Absolutely. Weapons are meant to be felt, not seen. Pardon the dated joke, but "Chuck Norris only acknowledges one element. The element of surprise." A girl that's barely 5 feet tall and might weigh 120lbs on a good day will only be more of a target if everyone sees she has a gun on her hip. All you need to do is distract her and then have someone sneak up and take her gun. Concealed carry is definitely the way to go. -- Thanks for all the input everyone. I do want to mention that not everyone has the luxury of "avoiding bad neighborhoods," as violence could strike anywhere. A girl in a suburb of where I live, about 5 years ago, was home from college, and an ex-boyfriend visited her. She had no idea that her body would be left behind a dumpster to be found a week later. You'd only expect the "bad neighborhood" to have something like this happen, but she either trusted the guy, or he used a gun to coerce her. You can't simply say "avoid (x)," because that's not the only time violence can occur. Also, I know almost nothing about guns, so I'm not going to talk about them that much haha.
Not true. We have every right to defend ourselves, and others. That would be instructing them to break the law, if in the UK. That's not good self-defence instruction.
Just a quick note before i go on - this is definitely one of the better threads i've seen on the discussion of weapons, and i for one am quite pleased about the balanced way in which it is progressing (previous EDC/defensive carry/improvised weapons discussions i've witnessed often involve a great deal of bravado, fantasy, and usually descend into a bit of an angsty foot-stomping session). I hope it continues On the topic of advising my students to carry weapons, i believe it is negligent for a person not to arm themselves as best they can within the restrictions dictated by their environment. I also believe you should not carry something you are not sufficiently trained to use, and that you do not possess an adequate understanding of. In short, there are serious consequences to carrying and using any object defensively, and the individual should educate themselves accordingly before making a decision on it. I am in no position to instruct them on whether or not they should. With regards your fistload question: It would be ILLEGAL for you to carry a high powered tactical light with the intent to blind someone and bash their head in. It would be LEGAL for you to carry a high powered tactical light with the intent to use it to find objects in the dark. It's not rocket science is it? There are actually very few objects on the "prohibited items" list (bar those that are obviously designed for no other reason than to kill/injure another person, such as knuckledusters). Rather, it is your intent that makes them illegal. On the side of utility, most no-frills fistloads (for instance, plastic kubotans) have very little actual effect on "stopping power." Far better to just learn to punch harder, and save yourself the distraction of having to deploy a hard-to-access tactical option under pressure. As has been mentioned by David Harrison, in the UK we DO have the right to defend ourselves, and third parties (whether they are known to us or not). In fact, in respect to our human rights - which play a crucial part in prosecution/defence and sentencing - the preservation of life trumps everything else. This is worth noting when we rationalise our actions. It is also worth noting that when we are in a heightened emotional state, we lose our ability to rationalise and articulate ourselves clearly, and after a violent incident a heightened emotional state may last long after the adrenaline has subsided. It can therefore be very dangerous to give evidence to the authorities without adequate mental preparation. One of the biggest arguments in martial arts generally - whether sport orientated or self-defence orientated - is the "speed dial:" A "go-to" solution for the majority of scenarios you are likely to encounter (like instinctively accessing your weapon when you feel threatened). In my younger days, i was a big fan of this - i liked to believe that there was a quickfire solution that would work 90% of the time, every time. Nowadays, i think that i was somewhat naive, and in actual fact, arming yourself with one-size-fits-all solutions to unknown problems is the tactical equivalent of bringing your favourite number to a maths exam (to quote Mick Coup). It is far better to observe the contributing factors/triggers, process, and respond appropriately and decisively - having a formula ready, rather than an answer. There is, of course, a counter-argument to that - usually made by those who lack sufficient knowledge to advise anyone on use of force procedures - that under stress, you lose the ability to process higher brain functions (retention, reasoning, fine motor skills etc) and so you should embrace your survival instincts and either go on the offensive or arm yourself accordingly. My argument would be that regardless of the timeframe you are operating in, you ALWAYS have sufficient time to intelligently process a situation, whether it's a feeling of impending doom as you think you heard a window break downstairs, or whether it's the shock and dizziness of being sucker-punched in a bar. At the end of the day, you must be able to prove that your actions were REASONABLE. Panic is not a good reason for pulling a gun out in a room full of people. Insufficient training is not a good reason for using excessive force. Ignorance is not a good reason for incriminating yourself in the post-incident report/interview. Students and instructors alike know that the above are all important factors that must be prepared for if we are to establish a holistic and intelligent method to defending ourselves and others. But rather than study use-of-force legislation, test ourselves under extreme physical fatigue, exercise our higher brain functions under stress, familiarise ourselves with conduct under interview, or examine case-studies, we would rather skip on ahead to sentry neutralisation techniques with a ballpoint pen. It is therefore no wonder that martial practitioners, even after several years of training in defensive systems, are still ignorant and confused as to when their lethal ninja techniques should be employed. Hence the question of carrying a weapon is somewhat pointless for most, since they don't even understand how and when to use their fists!
