Throughout our eueboksu/jacket grabbing defense series, we are taught various ways to do the chicken wing arm bar. Anybody have a favorite way to apply it? I personally like the latest one we learned where the hand is first pinned to your chest, the wrist is then locked like gweon jeol gi #1, and then finally your elbow goes over your opponents' and locks.
I like doing the chicken-wing arm-bar from a cuff grab...like Ap-Eui Bok Soo #1...with the kick out to side break fall on the arm...like Ap-Eui Bok Soo #18.
after the drop a shoulder+finger lock? i have also ditched the lock (if there is too much struggle) for a too gi/son mok su #5. both variations allow for a wicked post take-down arm bar. besides rolling out, any counters for a standing chicken wing anybody likes to do?
We call the "chiken wing" the "Bag Pipes" up here :evil: I actually like all the chicken wing arm bars, but think the most useful will probably be from a grab to the shoulder / lapel, follwed by the very quick takedown where you kick your leg out anf fall as per Ki_Power's post. I feel if done quickly I think that there is an automatic dislocation / snapping of the elbow of your atacker, and any further pinning would be sort of unnecessary allowing you to get up PDQ to take on any of his pals who may be in the vicinity, who, hopefully will be pretty damned shocked by the screeming of their pal who's elbow you have just dicombobulated! Just my thoughts. Cheers for the thread Choldeve, Good Buddy.
that would be ruff. thanks for the input. i guess when all your weight is falling there is no need for further action. never really tried it full intensity, so when we hit the ground it is easy to counter roll. the ap eui bok su where when the opponent grabs the upper sleeve, we strike the elbow first, then roll it over is a good example of not ever doing a chicken bag pipe wing full intensity. so how about x-block trap vs. interlaced fingers vs. one hand on the opponents' with the other rolling the elbow.
Yeah, likewise we don't do it full inensity for obvious reasons really :hat:. What I tend to do for the "fall" is to raise one leg as if I was falling, and lower my weight with the other leg by bending at the knee until near the ground keeping the lock on the opponents elbow, and sort of letting them get into a front fall position carefully so to speak. It can be done relatively quickly but dooesn't have the full impact of an actual fall. Not sure of any other way of doing it safely but if you have any ideas that would be awesome. As for the "X-block vs interlaced fingers vs one hand on the opponents' with the other rolling the elbow" I cannot quite envisage what this looks like. Can you explain further as it sounds quite intersting? Cheers Choldeva.
I also like Ap-Eui Bok Soo #2...while locked up, right leg sweep from the front to make the opponent go face first while you fall backwards...oh yeah!
vicious! i should have clarified the grab (my apologies!). i was alluding to the three or so grips we learn from the shoulder grab position: 1) crossing open hands in an x-fashion behind the opponents elbow, making an x-shape. then step forward or back. the opponents hand is pinned on top of your shoulder. 2) instead of crossing hands, interlace your fingers behind your opponents elbow.you may or may not use the crook of your neck to pin the arm with a chin to trapezius pin.
Funny. I was gonna make the same comment, but then I encountered spotty wireless connection. :bang: ROFL
Actually, we used to do this technique "full intensity" in demos. The trick is to watch the person doing the technique, and when they kick that first leg up as a preparatory movement for the jump, that's when you slide your feet back (preliminary movement for a front fall). This coordinates the timing so you don't land too early or too late WRT their impact on the ground, thus saving your elbow from a fate worse than death.
well look whos found his way in to the convo. again, thanks for your input sir. our teenage class is going to be wearing casts and slings like its a part of the uniform next week! kidosul, where ya at mang? lets make some vids and compare cross country variations, whatcha say?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg"]Standing arm bar - YouTube[/ame] Thought this might be of interest
the following video adds another perspective... arm bar without having to bar the arm: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0&feature=youtube_gdata"]Aoki Arm Lock - YouTube[/ame] is this like an ebs#1 variation turned into an armbar
I'm a little confused since I have always regarded EBS #1 as an "armbar." Maybe I'm not using the term correctly as it's used in current MMA circles, but I have always called a locking of the elbow in the straight alignment (threatening hyperextension) to be an armbar, whether the threat was made with the body, the hand, or what have you. In the linked video, the guy is twisting/torquing his body quicker than the other guy can move/reposition himself to relieve the stress on his elbow. However, if the guy being attacked with the joint-lock can manage to roll his arm so the force is not in line with the way his elbow bends, that's all it would take to thwart this particular attempt at an armbar. The demonstrated technique relies on speed of execution in order to be successful and a well-trained practitioner may be able to anticipate it in time to set up a counter (i.e. roll out of it), but that doesn't mean the technique should be summarily dismissed. EDIT: Sorry for the cerebral flatulence, as all that talk above about #1 being an armbar, should be directed to the set SonMokSu, rather than EuiBokSu. The way the joint is being attacked in EBS #1 relies on a bent elbow and why I made the mistake (and also confuses me even more WRT enabling an armbar with said technique). SMS #1, OTOH, does prescribe locking the elbow into the straight position. 2nd EDIT: Unless you meant EBS #2, which is almost identical to SMS #1. 3rd EDIT: I seem to be needing more coffee today than usual. One of the most common counters to the joint-lock in EBS #1 is to straighten your arm, in which case switching to something like was portrayed in the video just might work. :thinking:
With response to the rolling out counter, perhaps that's what shinya aoki is wanting, so he can then maul the person on the ground lol
Cheers for ther clarification Choladeva, I see where you are coming from now. I think I like either the X-fashion or using one hand to "lock" your opponents hand to your body, before applying the technique over and above the interlacing fingers approach. The interlacing fingers can, to me , can possibly lead to "locking" your own fingers which could cause problems. The other two allow a better opportunity to relase and apply a second technique or defend yourself if your original plan doesn't work. Just my opinion. Of course I would possibly argue that the technique applied ultimately is the one I feel most comfortable with at the time of "attack", if ou see what I mean? Awesome. that would probably take more training on my part then, both as attacker and defender. There must also be a huge amount of trust going on with both partners. I like it! Sorry for my confusion UK, but would you consider SMS 1 as a multiple joint lock as well as the arm bar, with the initial movements locking the wrist to turn and lock the elbow an ultimately the shoulder, with the secondary movement being the "arm bar" with the blade of the hand acting as the arm bar on the elbow? As you say EBS 2 is simlar to SMS 1, and if I can I like to apply the wrist lock to elbow to shoulder there as well. Not sure that that makes sense? Cheers All
I guess I should clarify that I tend to focus on the "downing" joint-lock as the defining aspect of a technique. Breaking the thumb upon release of their grip in SMS #1 is just a perk of clean execution, that's all, but I do see your POV (Quozl) about many of the techniques being comprised of more than one joint-lock, or a combination joint-lock (combo locks seem to be the rule rather than the exception WRT some sets, especially advanced ones - e.g. kwan juhl ki, neh?). Your (Quozl) concerns about avoiding the interlacing of fingers is something I agree with wholeheartedly. In fact, the only technique I can think of that is *officially* taught to interlace the fingers is #12 Ap Eui Bok Su. It's really the only way to secure their elbow in your grip for the ensuing twist/torque applied to the arm, IMO. Not that their aren't plenty of other options you could do in order to escape from the specified clothing grab, but for that particular technique it's justified.
I realise that there are a lot of different names by different martial artists to describe certain locks and holds, but I always thought that a Chicken Wing looked something like this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRL0eQzrI2g"]Chicken-Wing Arm Lock - YouTube[/ame] Although I do appreciate that it can be applied from a lot more positions than shown in this particular video clip.
