'Essential batto & Kenjutsu: Killing Arts Of the Japanese Sword'

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Dead_pool, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    To clarify: a mutual friend put us in touch, but I have been discussing the issue directly with Mr McCarnun.

    He and I have some polar opinions but was keen on the idea of meeting up to talk koryu.
     
  2. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    Should be interesting to see how it plays out. I can tell you from experience that it is difficult to go from top dog sensei to being just another student. If he's really interested in the sword arts though, he'll see just how poor what he's doing is compared to koryu arts, and he'll change.
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Any comment From Joskei btw?
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Agreed. Mind you, there's a few indications in your earlier report that have me a little unsure as to whether or not that's actually what's going to happen...

    From this, I take it that Taran is only replacing part of the weaponry syllabus (the sword section) with training in a Koryu? Unfortunately, that indicates to me that he still doesn't quite get it... as he's seeming there to want to simply change the technical approach... and then put it into what he's already teaching. And, to my mind, that kinda misses the point of training in a Koryu. Additionally, I have some reservations as to what ability he would have to be teaching an art he's only just being exposed to himself... it'll lead him to only focus on the mechanics and techniques, which will just reinforce the idea that they're what's important. Additionally, if he's only changing this one section, is he keeping all the rest? I know that you focused on his sword, but honestly, everything in all the clips was desperately flawed, with huge gaps in understanding of every weapon used, and some big issues with the unarmed (by combining untested methods and unrelated approaches, being a quasi-Jujutsu with a Karate-style Kempo, and the only requisite that the technique could be done against someone who didn't react or respond [resist] in any way).

    I applaud his looking to find a more legitimate and accurate approach... but keeping the rest, and only changing one area, really won't do much. At the best, it'll show him that everything he's been doing is in the same boat, not just the sword. At which point, it's a matter of keep it all, and retain the school/system/teaching position/students etc, or acknowledge that none of it has any real value (based on his ideals of preserving accurate classical arts, as well as keeping a serious, combatively focused training mentality), in which case, the entire school should be closed, and Taran should consider himself a beginner in the new system, which would have him in no position to be teaching it. For those who are interested in the same thing, the best he could do is to invite them to come with him.... but that can lead to a lot of resentment and feelings of betrayal on behalf of the (then) former students...

    See, that's the thing... with his background, he might find it rather difficult to get into a Koryu method of training, from a mental, technical, and emotional standpoint. Thing is, you're thinking that a Koryu art is it's techniques.... and, as a result, having a background in similar methods/weaponry/techniques can help. That's really not the case in every situation.... Still, I'll be interested to see what the next step is.
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Let's give the guy his due.

    It's no small thing realising that what you have been working hard on for years may not be what you thought.


    This chap is looking to take steps that many in his situation wouldn't bother with, good on him.

    He's in a position now to possibly commence training in a koryu, encouragement is the call if the day and not pre-emptive condemnation.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Yeah, agreed, and I'm completely supportive of his steps in that direction.... however, I was also looking at the realities of it. Just tacking in a Koryu sword form into the rest of what he's doing isn't a whole lot better (don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled, and it's definitely better!), and I'm just looking, perhaps a little cynically, at what this presents to me. In an odd way, this thread could be the end of Junsei Ryu completely....
     
  7. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    First step would be to get someone in to a koryu group, and hopefully will change. If so, then this person will himself understand, from within.
     
  8. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    The alternative for him is to invite koryu guys to teach them, and for him to become a dojo leader rather than teacher.

    He has already said he would be willing to do this.
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Cool. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the rest of the Junsei Ryu curriculum, though....
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Having been in the KMA for a good number of years, I think I have seen this movie at least once before.

    IME what I have observed is that to legit and authentic in your claims you need to have bitten the bullet and actually trained with some level of commitment in a particular tradition. That takes time and that takes money and it requires sacrifice and putting your practice far ahead of a lot of other priorities. The majority of people don't do that, which is why people who do are quick to take umbarage when they identify someone who may have cut corners.

    Many, many years ago when I started my training I put on a uniform and a white belt and sat in the back of a class and paid my dues. Seems that nowadays such things are negotiable depending on how many students one can bring along to the new organization.

    Sorry to sound harsh; I think this is just business as usual in the wacky world of Martial arts. ----IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Bruce, I really don't think you understood anything about what Ludde was saying there...
     
  12. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    My comment was made to the concerns that Chris put forth. My motivations to start this practice is different from why I continue. And I am thinking that if he starts this practice and continues with it, it will all sort itself out.

    Maybe you too Bruce should find a koryu group, for no other reason than to make us richer!!!
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I've had many chief Instructors come through my doors of the years. The good guys knuckle down and train. The ego maniacs sulk and leave quickly. Nobody sits at the back of my class and pays dues. Everybody trains and everybody fights. I've has students who were remarkable in 6 months and other who are average after 2 years. If the guy is talented he will improve very quickly.

    The Bear.
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    If money is a factor in why someone pursues the discipline that they do, you have already lost me. In my own life I have used "money" as a kind of "litmus test". In such cases I ask myself if I would follow a particular course whether or not money was involved (IE. made money for me, was too expensive, was suspiciously inexpensive etc). FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. Joseki

    Joseki Valued Member

    there is my 2p worth
    Taran is an honest and says it as it is guy..
    As for his word in what he does well an example is he is the only guy i know has moved away (from up north to down south) and still goes back and teaches his class EVERY week end! so what you may think? well he dont drive?? he is up at 5am to get to his dojo for midday, its cost him a lot in hall rent and train fares, and he does this without getting any profit and sometimes dont even get enough to cover the hall.. but he does it

    This is not a sad look at Taran story its fact, by all means you can rip it apart word for word it really makes no difference to me as it is a fact.

    So what i think is if it is what Taran wants to do he will do it..

    Taran to be classed as a Mcdojo is a joke as i trully hope he proves you all wrong (in a none vicious way)
    if he dont well i will gladdy burn with him, as i respect him as a martial artist
    if he does.. well thats the close of story and moved on i say :)
     
  16. SASchofield

    SASchofield Valued Member

    I'm Shane, a Junsei Ryu student, though I can't speak for Taran Sensei, I can attempt to answer some of your questions.

    I've only just joined this forum and have no idea how to use it or link anything, so i'll start each answer with what I'm referring to. Apologies if I miss anything, just post the question again.

    Firstly, regarding all youtube videos, they are made as a reminder to students, not as an exact reference but simply of the general motions. It is the student's job to assess their own technique and improve it thusly (for example, there's a video where I perform a terrible kick, dropping my guard and frankly making myself look a tool - upon watching this I went back and performed the same kick over and over ensuring any mistakes present were removed.)

    The hand grip during one of the youtube videos: Taran Sensei doesn't usually make such blunders and certainly hasn't made that mistake with a shinken, I believe this mistake was due to a lack of a tsuba.

    Naginata video - the sequence is very linear due to it representing one soldier beside many, all marching forwards repeating the same thing. Swinging it about madly in this scenario would probably take your friend's eye out.

    Mistranslations - like with any attempt at translation, it is not always accurate, nor will a word always have a foreign counterpart.

    "branding" and the such like - what's in a name? you might argue a name is YOUR heritage and all manner of things, however a name is just a way to distinguish one object from another. I could change my name by deed-poll but i'm still the same otherwise... Our name (along with any Western martial art name) is us differentiating from another school, the use of words is an attempt to explain our overall goals.

    Religion - as far as im aware i've never had any religious believes forced upon me. Well unless you include budo as a religious belief system?



    Noone at Junsei Ryu believe they are the be all and end all, we all have learning to do and are fully aware a belt or "dan grade" has little relevence in the grand scheme of things.
    Taran Sensei, along with several other sensei reduced their rank as they felt they had been "overgraded", it was reduced to one which a large panel agreed was adequate. Bearing in mind i've seen dispicably bad 10th Dans, a 4th or 5th dan is very reasonable for his technical level.
    Yes, there are better swordsman, who can perform the technique better but very few can then teach these.
    Taran Sensei happens to be very good at explaining fundamental principles, unfortunately that would make for an extremely long youtube video.

    Taran Sensei did not (and does not) wish to be teaching, he would much rather be training like everyone else. He is aware his technique isnt "perfect" and certainly would never make a claim as such.
    As with any teacher, skills get rusty and as has already been pointed out, he intends on training at a sword devoted school to fill in the gaps.
    The book "Essential Kenjutsu and Battojutsu" is also a basic reference book and is meant to supplement a beginning student. Not to be used as a substitute teacher.




    That's all I can remember off the top of my head, please feel free to ask further questions. Either here on the forum or via email to email removed by mod as per the ToS (i really need a more professional looking one)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2012
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I hope you've picked up on that the general consensus is that we all wish him luck with starting from scratch in his study of a traditional Kenjustu ryu-ha.

    It can be very rewarding and there is nothing better than seeing someone with passion find what they were actually seeking. Personally I hope he doesn't have too many problems with coming to terms with his past training in light of these new opportunities, it can often bring with it a sense of feeling let down and having wasted years of study.

    Good luck in his future endeavours.
     
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    A good idea. However what you have to understand is that when viewed in comparison to actual traditional systems there are some obvious differences, that's been the main issue.

    .

    Could you tell us what your naginata is based on?

    What are its roots? Or is it simply what your teachers think Naginatajutsu is like?



    Not entirely applicable when dealing with traditional ryu. Name, terminology etc can carry great meaning.


    Honestly I'm not knocking your teacher here or you but going on the above you need to widen your Budo circle.


    Fundamental principles of what? This has been one if the problems, where does your material come from? What are its roots?

    If it has no basis in the actual application of the weapons involved, i.e. it's simply what someone thinks it should be, then where are you left?

    If that's really the intent then someone will be disappointed I think, you don't train in a koryu so you can use it to fill the gaps in your modern hybridised system.

    Well not unless you've reached uber levels in it and are licensed, qualified enough to "break" from the ryu.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  19. Joseki

    Joseki Valued Member

    Yes i did the only issue i ever had (when i quote it) was the idiot comment.. red towel to me that was :)

    Anyway being honest if i did not vaule Taran or his students or Ash i would not of wasted my time :)

    Regards
    Dave
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I notice there is Fusen-ryu being covered, in a way, at a seminar. Info on Facebook under Seimeido Winter Gasshuku 2012.


    Have to admit I didn't realise we had Fusen-ryu in the UK, who's teaching those elements?
     

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