I have mean't to put this up for a little bit for people who were interested to know the history of Erle's study, his teachers, what he learned from whom and a few details about how he came to certain points in his training. I have often seen people in other forums and this one question these things as though the answers were not there, assuming therefore Erle is a fraud or some such nonsense. Here is what I can provide. Teachers ... *60's - Master Wong Eog - Taijiquan *70's - Master Chu King Hong - Taijiquan Yang Cheng Fu - Student of Yang Sau Chung, eldest son of Yang Cheng Fu. *80's - Chang Yiu Chun - Old Yang Style Taijiquan - One of three students of Yang Shao Hou and classmate of Chen Pan Ling. Both Chen Pan Ling and Erle's Old Yang Style contain many similarities. *80's - Master Ho-Ho Choy - a direct disciple of Bagwazhang Master Chiang Jung-jiao. *85 - Had form corrected by Yang Sau Chung. *85 - Performed in China and was called into a private gathering to be tested by three Masters, Fu Zhongwen, Shao Shan Kan ( Great Xingyi Master ) and Wang Xin Wu (Head of Chinese Wushu Committee, famous Chinese martial artist and film actor). Erle was tested physically by Shao Shan Kan in a near all out fight and gave as good as he got. It was then decided by the three to award Erle with the certificate of Master which was done infront of 15 other masters and the Wushu committee. * Broadsword was taught to Erle by Li Yi Shee in Hong Kong who was a student of Yang Sau Chung and his second brother. * Short Stick form was taught by Chang Yiu Chun and was said to be a lost Yang form by Chang. * Straight Sword/Jian was taught by Chang Yiu Chun who also taught Erle the concealed dagger in straight sword as well as the knife fighting forms. * Wudang and Qi disruption - Erle was tipped off about this village by Yang Sau Chung during a fit of talking ( visa negotiations ) via a translater to a westerner. Erle did some research and contacted a guy from the China Wushu magazine who owed him a favour and it was he that found out and sourced information about the Liang Village. Erle was writing to the Liang village elder for about ten years before he was accepted to make a visit and learn the remaining forms ... the first three of which he already had from Chang Yiu Chun. There are some other elements of this story which I will not divulge but to those genuinely involved in Erle's system. The above is enough to give you the low down on the important information. I hope this clears a little smoke. Best, Syd.
You forgot to mention he trained under dillman and at first said pressure point fighting was nonsense but now he claims he is a master in pressure points and teaches his watered down version of them? how come you missed that out. Also he got a master teaching certificate, but claims he was made a martial arts master in china not so? Also his lineage story changes more often than my underwear. and his dillman story on his website has been radically altered since i first read it about 10 years ago. Why's that? MF
Uh oh Syd... you've opened a can of worms with that one... ... you can find much of this info on the web but it does change from time to time and story to story... cheers
Another thing to mention, since a lot of people seem to think erle made up the term 'hou chuan' is that even in the book 'Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan' by fu zhongwhen, it says: "Yang LuChan (1799-1872), a native of Yongian county in Hebei privince, was an impoverished youth who at around ten years of age went to Chen Village in Wen county in search of livilihood. From the Chen style boxing master, Chen Zhangxian, he studied the broad-framed Laojia Chen style of Taijiquan. ... At that time, people named this art Zhan Mian Quan (cotton boxing), Ruan Quan (soft boxing), or Hua Quan (transformation boxing)." This basically says that "Hua Quan" is correct, being another spelling of of "Hou Chuan" Quan/chuan meaning "boxing" The correct Pinyin spelling is "hua," the translation of which is "to transform." So if erle is incorrect about anything it's just the pinyin spelling, but hou/hua chuan did exist!
If you are saying that hou is another pinyin spelling of hua then you are not correct... as hua and hou are said very differently... and thus are spelt differently... Hou = nobleman, throat, or wart Hua = (as far as I could translate) flower, spend.. Flower boxing would fit in with the soft theme... ie a flower bends/yields before the wind and is not defeated whereas a sturdy tree may be blown over... I am still working on that translation though so may yet find it means transformation (which my dictionary translates into bianyaqi... or transform as gaibian...
I'm just saying it's obvious that erle meant 'hua' not 'hou'. I'm pretty sure i read that it was Chang Yiu Chun who "told" him this, meaning he probably didn't see the correct spelling and thus was just guessing what the spelling was based off the pronunciation of Chang Yiu Chun. That's just my theory anyway, could be wrong.
Frank. I'm not here to pander to petty accusations, pedal it elsewhere. Erle has had dealings with Dillman and has checked him out in the past he didn't train under him. Should it come as any surprise that this comes from someone in Dillmans camp? You left that out too. I didn't leave that out, I stated above quite clearly that he was awarded the Master teaching cert. Not in all the time I have known him and the lineage has been solid on his website as well as through people who have known him longer than I. Take your argument to the source if you have more problems. So what? He may have in the hindsight and the passage of time decided to revise his thoughts, add or remove a passage. What has changed so radically? It's been the same since I've known him. Good luck mate ...
If my mandarin is correct (it is not very good now), Hua(4) means transform. Mandarin has 4 tones. Hua (1= 1st tone) = "flower", "spend" is also pronounced this way, but it's written differently. Hua(4=4th tone)= transform (Hua(4) from the word Bian(4) Hua(4)......Bian(4) means= change Hope that helps
The story as put forward by others may change from time to time and story to story but in all the time I have known Erle the story has been solid and the people I have known that know Erle for many years have the same facts I do. No can of worms here just the facts. If people begrudge Erle being a revisionist of his own writings then thats one thing but the teachers he studied under and what he learned are another.
Darkstorm... thanks I know it has four tones and I have found reference to Bianhua... one word meaning pretty much change... thanks mate..
I'm a third generation Arsenal supporter mate, I'm up watching/taping the Gunners play Rosenborg in the UEFA at home in Highbury. Current score ... 2 nil to Arsenal! Make that 3 nil!
By the way and just as an aside. If Erle was fraudulent in regard to his knowledge of Dim Mak, why would he be contributer of the foreward to the Point Location Manual by Carol Rogers, a foremost authority in Chinese TCM and Accupunture? I know Carol personally as she was my professor at University! Why would an eminent professor in TCM ask a nobody fraud to contribute a foreward to their work? Klang! They wouldn't. Why would Erle be a contributer of a foreward to the book by Flane Walker and Richard Bauer - The Art of Life and Death - Book of Dim Mak - if he was a fraud and knew nothing? There they frequently reference Erle's works and praise his contributions to the study of Dim Mak ... no mention of Dillman anywhere at all. It is interesting to note also that Flane Walker is the sole recipient of the branch of Dim Mak that was imparted to Flane by Flanes Japanese teacher, Mastuetsu Kushubi and his family art, Won Hop Loong Chuan. Mastuetsu was a master in his art and chose Flane walker to pass transmission of the art to him. So given that Flane Walker who has a completely independant source for his teachings, teachings that stem from a Japanese master of the art, and the fact that he would certainly know whether somebody knew anything about these arts by comparison or not - he not only defers to Erle in the pre-eminence of his knowledge and contribution to the study of Dim Mak but also asks him to write a foreward in his own book! No mention of Dillman anywhere. So in closing, a University Professor and head of TCM department and a keeper of a Japanese system of Dim Mak both rate Erle and his knowledge of Dim Mak and point striking enough to have him contribute forewards to their books, and a lone voice from the peanut gallery howls out he's full of baloney and thats supposed to shake our confidence?. Yeah ok ...
Well theres issues which date back to Erle's time with Chu and Yang Sau Chung which directly contribute to the perception of some to this day. "Old Yang Style is for the Yangs" is a quote I can share ... you can guess the rest.
I've been looking around the internet for information about Erle's master qualification and I can't find any. On Erle's site it says he competed in the 1985 China Nationals in Yinchuan and received a "master's degree" after three days of testing. I think it may dispel many criticisms if everyone knew what constitutes a qualification like this. Although you can order tapes of the 1985 competitions from a wushu site (wish I had the $$!), they don't have a comprehensive list of competitors or results. Do you know the chinese name and/or the actual qualification Erle received when he describes his "master's degree"? I saw a picture somewhere of him receiving a certificate but as I can't read chinese it's probably useless for me to look for it!
Hey Rich. I doubt you would find it online, it was 1985 when this all happened and the internet wasn't going then. Erle would be the person who has the certificate hard copy and I doubt they would keep records of it or triplicate copies in China; thats the nature of certificates. Do you mean in what way and how was Erle tested? He was put through his paces within all the various permutations of Taijiquan and Fu, Wu and Kan were there to test him. As I said before, Erle told me directly that Kan and he had a sparring match which nearly became an all out fight and they were happy with what they saw of his skill. It was after this they decided to give him the award. If you want more details mail Erle and you might get more detail. I believe the competitions were more in the nature of exhibitions. I have footage of Erle and Les Anwill in 85 going at push hands, double push hands, da lu and then Bagua at this event. Erle is excellent in the event as uses all of the traditional uprooting power and leading and neutralizing power you would come to expect from someone in form. The crowd are audibly heard to applaud during the various rounds they go through. It's simply Master Degree, I also have the image of the presentation on the same DVD. I'm sure someone could translate it if they were desperate to get it off Erle's DVD. He sure isn't hiding anything in that regard. As to the Chinese name, I really have no idea.
I think it's on the end of a 2 parter - "How to use Taiji and Bagua" and there is some of the event on the end of "Advanced methods of Taiji and Bagua". I can't recall how much is on the Advanced methods but it is definately on "How to use..."
