Erle says its Death Time.

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by cheesypeas, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on


    [ame=""]YouTube - Dim-Mak Cornerstone Forms V. 2 Air/Wind Erle Montaigue[/ame]
  2. Gary

    Gary Vs The Irresistible Farce Supporter

    Thanks to Anth links to youtube should auto embed ;)
  3. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hmm, interesting.

    Not sure I'm buying his ideas on Dian Xue (dim mak)...
  4. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Care to elaborate? :)
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian


    Once you add some of your thoughts! :p
  6. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    There are plenty of silk laiden dancers out there to choose from.... This man gives all he has learned, everytime.
    Un-matched fa-jing and transferal of that knowledge is second to none.

    If Erle says its deathtime, your going to die :)
  7. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Never met the man in real life so cant really comment on his skill.

    Spoke to him via email a few times, some bizarre opinions and kinda arrogant. IMO, he did not know what he was talking about and directly contradicted my own experience.

    To me it looks like he loses balance when he strikes, specifically he shifts his weight forward and his heel comes of the ground. This is not bad in itself, not at all, but its not the whole body power that I think he should be producing. In other words he is striking more like a boxer, using kinetic linking, the foot is torqued and the power is passing sequentially through his body, taking his mass forward and up with him and making his heel come up i.e. breaking his root.

    IMO, he should be wholly using a torqing type force, unified up/down, forward/back, in/out movement. This in turn roots you deeper when you strike forward or up, as the corresponding force is moving in the opposite direction (one part moves, all parts move, simultaneously) i.e. heel gets planted in to the ground firmer than when you are just standing, creating a more solid structure/line of force.

    Never seen any non-compliant stuff from him either. If you got some, post it please.

    Also, he has way too much material and over emphasizes marketing. Thats usually not a good sign.

    Now of course I am no expert, this is just my opinion... another random internet dude. Plus he can do whatever the hell he wants :)
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  8. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    Well im going to have to agree on the amount of tapes, at first i was suprised.
    I myself settled for old 8 animal forms, I learnt more in 10 min from Erle than 20 yrs of Ego driven karate instructors running us through basics yet again LOL
    At the point of karate loosing its emphasis on kata and therefore bunkai it began to self-destruct into some tippety tappety sparring rubbish...
    Point is, he gives you all he knows, not only a system or a technique etc.

    From karate i learned karate..
    from wing chun etc... But Erles teaching method and the content is complete, in my opinion a true master, Others either dont know or arnt sharing these finer details concerning Internal martial arts.

    Anyoneone else who has a Masters Degree from China wouldnt give us the time of day.... Let alone answer all our pesky e-mails etc.
    Where are these other masters? how much time and money to learn this one tape from them?

    Also i am yet to find another person anywhere on internet to better learn from, when you learn a form off Erle you know it all. Not just the movements...

    Erles tapes cost the same as a bought lunch these days....
    If anyone can lead me to a better instructor that is practically giving this level of knowledge away for the price of lunch today, Let me know.
    Becouse last time i checked they want years and much more money LOLOL
    Peace :)
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This is a discussion all unto itself.

    Now I'm far from being Erles biggest fan. But I disagree with you about the heel mate..

    It doesn't define root. And I think you can still have contradictory force whilst bringing it up. You can push off the heel (or whole foot) and still bring it up on follow through. The more important area where "root" is concerned is the front part of the foot..

    Keeping heels on the ground as a rule when exchanging punches just makes you too ploddy and immobile. There maybe time when planting your feet and throwing is the right thing, other times you want to be mobile and striking, i think the latter you will tend to do more of ideally.

    Whatever we do unbalancing ourselves to do it, not a great idea..
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    For some movements, it's more powerful if you lift your heel. For others, it's awkward. If you're in to this kind of movement, and practicing to use short, sharp movements in all and any direction, you soon learn that there is no one method fits all soloution - you need a range of ways of doing it. Fortunately, the body just knows which one to use, in my experience - because it's inevitably the most natural movement.

    Unfortunately, with 'fa li', most people only concentrate on a very limited number of techniques, usually issuing force forwards. They rarely thing about issuing force to the side, or back, or in circular movements, close, far, up down, or for a range of different circumstances.

    'Root', in my view, is far more usefully left alone as an idea - whatever it is intended to refer to, if you train properly, and it is a real thing, will naturally develop. Far better to concentrate on practical function - that way, all the elements of practical function will naturally develop, and we won't get caught up arguing about definitions of vague ideas which we haven't fully developed yet.
  11. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Of course. That's a defining point of Yao line Yiquan - they even jab by bringing the front heel up and twisting the whole body. It's a very powerful way of punching. But they very practically also point out that sometimes, especially stepping forwards, it's not always practical. Necessity should dictate which way at any given point.
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    You know I thought a bit more about this whole heel thing over the weekend. One thing is that Yao brothers YiQuan uses a lifting heel like a boxer with certain strikes and seeing as they are big proponents of all the contradictory forces and have skill, then they must be doing it right. However, on the other hand YiQuan was influenced by boxing, so it may simply be stylistic lag, but unlikely taking in to account Yao's attitude of getting rid off useless stuff etc.

    Anyhow, I had a little play around with lifting the heel and striking forward/up, and I personally find that the corresponding downward force buckles my leg if I lift my heel. I think this may be something to do with splitting force, something I have neglected training for a while. Specifically, at the moment, to generate a corresponding upward/forward force, I close both my hips inwards/downwards. However, in some other stuff that I have trained (not for a while) you practice this one sided i.e. one side closes, one side opens. Now, this sorta makes sense, cause if I lift heel and sink the same leg, there are two forces working against each other, heel lifting going up - hip closing going down. So, it would be better to have the hip joint on the same side as the heel lift to open, so as not to create a "break" for the force. This needs more exploration from my side... maybe someone with more concrete YiQuan experience can shed some light on the mechanics of the YiQuan heel lift thing... paging FIREQUAN

    Anyway, if I use purely boxing type mechanics, it is fine, as one would expect. But, it does not gel well with my current fetish :)

    Back to the vid. I had a look at Yao brothers doing their heel lifting stuff, it looks quite different to what Erle is doing, and they certainly don't look like they tilt or lose balance. So I still think that Erle is using boxing type movement and launching himself forward. Nothing wrong with that, boxing is great, but I would not say he is using "contradictory force" as it fits with my current definition/understanding.

    [ame=""]YouTube - Yiquan (æ„拳) - Yao Chengguang (姚承光) & Yao Chengrong (姚承è£)[/ame]

    P.S. That was quick FQ, I mention you while writing my post and already have a reply :D .... never mind, thanks for your input, good points!
  13. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Griffin, as long as you are getting something you think is worthwhile, its all good. Just make sure you test your source and what you get. Plus, never hurts to look for a better source either. Happy training! :)
  14. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    The Yaos actually changed it at a certain point in time - I couldn't say when. Or rather, for certain moves, especially basic punches, they researched the heel lifting way, and found it to be more powerful. The later the clip of the Yaos, the more they're likley to be doing the heel lifting.

    When I was learning with my coach, we learned the 'car stopping dead' method - where the foot just pushes out and back, with the force like a car stopping dead. Then he went back to China, came back, and said that the Yao's had developed a better method, and we switched to that. It felt very odd at first - especially if one tried to everything like that. Then I realised, it works mostly for techniques where you use only one side - like a jab, or a cross. Where you use both hands, like a push, or in some movements where you use all your force in one direction, like a shoulder strike, you need either the original way, or a combination - half twist, half jut. Then I realised that that was exactly what my coach, and the Yaos, were teaching, lol... I'd been too stiff, looking for hard and fast rules, rather then letting my body natrually show me the right way.

    Still, not all Yiquan is influenced as fully by boxing - some branches are more influenced by Xing Yi or bagua, or even liu He Ba Fa or taiji, so you still see a number of different ways, old and new.
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    From about the two minute mark:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Yiquan hitting pads training[/ame]
  16. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Interesting stuff FQ, thanks for the info!
  17. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I thought his technique was good (Erle I mean) and at least it is a fighting art he is teaching. Many tai chi teachers teach the forms but have no idea how to apply it in a practical way. The marma he is hitting are as he said death points and yes if you were hit with that it would be death time.
  18. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    heels. IA heels are raised in transitions aren't they? rather than when you arrive at the striking moment? Most important for the foot closest to the hand to be flat and anything which makes you want to raise your other heel might better be handled by a turn of the waist?

    if you're good enough, you can probably root the whole thing through one foot anyway, but learners wouldn't do that.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Heel up, heel down.Not written in stone.(And what about follow-steps?)

    Seems to be at discretion of practitioner,from what I've observed and photos I've seen over the years.Among others,check Wm. C. C. Chen, and the execution of Tung,Ying-ch'ieh's fast sets.

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