Erle Montaigue

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Pablo, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    OK, lets forget about training methods, and go back to personalities.

    Is anyone on the forum involved in practicing Erle's/WTBA material? I would be particularly interested in your take on the bagwa interpretations.


  2. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Hi there
    I have studied with Earle and one of his instructors.
    His Taichi and his Jiang Rong Qiao BGZ.
    I don't know how much you know about Earle but his focus is on explosive movements,which is present in his interpartation of BGZ.

    I have also studied JRQ BGZ with another Taiwanese teacher and it was presented in a totally different manner.

    Which is better?I think that has to do with what you are looking for.
  3. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    I have been working out with the Original form as Erle presents it for several years, prior to that, I learned a different version using 8 animal postures.

    It seems to me that there is a marked difference in the fa-jing of the two versions (if that is what you were referring to as explosive power).

    Did the version that you worked with from Taiwan place as much emphasis on Dim Mak as Erle?


  4. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    Yep fajing has a large emphasis in EM system,and your correct that is what I was refereing to.

    The JRQ form that I lerant from a Taiwanese teacher had no such emphasis,fajing or Dimak,while the movements resembled each others form,application was totally different.
    Personally I found in general terms the latter very soft and lacking what I consider the fundamentals of BGZ.

    I have since come across many stlyes of BGZ including the animals form that you speak of,as well as the stardardised PRC form.

    Curently I leran from a Teacher (mainlander) whose concertration is on circle walking and the first and second palm changes (quite different from JRQ form) with lots of roushou and flow drills.Focus is on fluid continous relaxed movement.

    Once again I find many things that I have been taught overlap from teacher to teacher,and I would always say that EM information and style of teaching is much more complete then other teachers I have meet (both Chinese and Anglo) within Australia.
  5. paihequan

    paihequan Valued Member

    Erle is A1 as bothe a mate and martial artist. His presentation of Taiji and the concept of Fajing is one of the best around.

    I personally feel that Erle teaches a more complete and in-depth way
  6. alienlovechild

    alienlovechild Valued Member

    I practice EMs stuff. I have no doubt that his Taiji has influenced his Bagua. I like the tightness of Erles Bagua, the power in the waist, which I found missing with other Bagua styles that I have seen. One Bagua practitioner I met did not like the Fa-jing emphasis in my form, but I say if it feels good do it, whcih it does. I would love to see more Bagua. I am on the gold coast in Australia, but wouldn't mind traveling a bit. And if anyone has good books etc on Bagua, please let me know.
  7. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Erle's Bagua lineage is also disputable

    Erle claims his teacher Ho Ho Choy learnt Bagua from Jiang Rong Qiao (JRQ). This is on his website and been repeated countless time by people who did not cross check this claim:

    “ In 1981 Erle travelled to Hong Kong, where his form was evaluated by Yang Sau-chung and where he studied with Ho Ho-choy, a direct disciple of Bagwazhang Master Chiang Jung-jiao ( Mandarin = Jiang Rong Qiao JRQ). “

    But the fact of the matter is Ho Ho Choy’s teacher is Gao Yi Sheng. This is clearly stated by Ho Ho Choy’s senior student, and therefore Erle's classmate , world renowned Hong Kong IMA teacher CS Tang :

    “ Ho Ho Choy was introduced by that guardsman, Mr. Wong, to learnt from Gao “

    After reading another thread, where a poster questioned Erle’s Bagua lineage claim, I checked with my sources in Hong Kong and it seems it is UNDISPUTED common knowledge that Ho Ho Choi’s Bagua teacher is Gao Yi Sheng ( not Jiang Rong Qiao as claimed by Erle)

    This is also verified by a Canadian IMA site which has a fairly detailed lineage tree:
    Go to this page , scroll a third way down until you find Erle Montaigue & CS Tang in the lineage tree.

    In fact nowhere in the known world , except for Erle’s website, does anyone say Ho Ho Choy’s teacher is Jiang Rong Qiao.

    So Erle is WRONG.
    Did Erle lie or did he misunderstand his teacher?
    AS I recall, Erle learnt everything from Ho Ho Choy via a translator.
    So what else did Erle misunderstand?
    The finer points of Bagua?
    The unique and peculiar hip shake in the circle walk?
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  8. alienlovechild

    alienlovechild Valued Member

    Talk of lineage in and of itself is useless. Someone learnt from someone who learnt from someone ... who did he learn off ... someone else. This of course can't go forever ... someone at some point invented this stuff. On what basis did they invent it ... through deep contemplation of corporeal being ... not from what they got from the next guy. Even if they elaborated on what they got from the previous guy, how did they do this? Where did their own input come from if not from their self? People who focus almost entirely on lineage mystify the past and the east. Did Erle misunderstand the finer points of Bagua? What points? Whose points? On what basis are we to determine the validity of any points in the first place? When I asked Erle how he could tell the authentic teachers from the inauthentic ones, being that he spoke almost no Chinese etc, his answer was that he couldn't beat up the good ones.

    Discuss principles, not lineage.

    Is Erle a good martial artist ... yes. Could Erle kick the sh@t out of soggycat, almost certainly.
  9. ubermint

    ubermint Banned Banned

    I do remember Montaigue backing out of a challenge from Renzo Gracie, brought on by Montaigue publishing a book called (i'm not kidding) "How to use dim mak to beat the grappler".
  10. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    The hip shake does seem to be a particular Erle thing. I've been to workshops with Erle, where he demonstrates the power you can generate by using that particular step, and also where he talked about his theory of why other schools have removed/forgotten that part of the footwork.

    On the other hand, I went to a workshop held by Ma Chuan Xu last year. He's one of the foremost authorities in the world in bagua and taught street defence skills to government & security staff in China for decades (and also used his bagua to catch criminals). I asked him directly about Erle's particular style of hip shake (through a translator), and Ma Chuan Xu didn't think it was useful. His own style was distinguished by a more open posture, with a straight inner foot and inward-twisting outer foot. Note that he emphasises quite strenuous circle walking training, walking for hours with the bagua palms, to stretch/strengthen the ligaments.

    Overall, I appreciate Erle's idea about the step/swivel being useful for kicking training as well as quick footwork, and I've seen for myself how fast he can move, but then again it's just one system among many.
  11. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I've been learning Erle's Ba Gua from his student Jack Davis. From what I've seen, and I only have the first four palm changes, it's a really dynamic style.

    - Matt
  12. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Seems to me that the people who dismiss the significance of belonging to “good” lineage fall into 3 categories;

    1. One who doesn’t understand IMA culture
    2. One who did not have a teacher with good lineage
    3. One who wishes he had good lineage ( Erle?)

    That aside, you seem to forget (deliberate?) the point I am making:

    That Erle’s claim that his teacher’s teacher is Jiang Rong Qiao is INCORRECT.
    Wether this is a deliberate LIE or MISUNDERSTANDING is up to you to judge, in either case they do not put Erle in good light.

    XingYiBoxer is right in using the term "scam artist"
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  13. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Erle was very wise to back out.
    Dim Mak despite all it’s glorious potential is a difficult art to master and not practical to use in most fight scenarios.
    By the time you locate the accupoint ( beneath clothes) or on a moving part of the opponent’s body and actually deliver a PRECISE strike to it, your opponent would have gouged your eyes out, snapped your neck and crushed your testicles.
    Dim Mak can only be used effectively provided it is combined with a fast delivery method.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2005
  14. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    And Ma ChuanXu has well defined , clearly stated good lineage.
    Just like Bruce Franzis, Tim Cartmell, Alan Smith or Dr. John Painter.
    These men do not attract controvesy, nor do they go around putting other systems down publically.

    “Mr.Ma Chuanxu was born in 1933 in Boye County in Hebei Province in the family with long martial arts tradition. At the age of nine he was introduced to Shaolin Boxing by his father. In 1951 his family moved to Beijing where he has been living since then. In 1961 he started to study Baguazhang under Li Ziming, Liang Zhenpu's disciple and Dong Haichuan's grand-disciple.”
  15. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Soggycat - why don't you email Erle and ask him for clarification about this?

    A number of MAP people know Erle personally, and I myself, as well as some other MAP'ers have had email correspondence with him about different topics.

    I've found he usually responds within a few days to any of my own questions.

    We know you have had a lot of comments to make about Erle, ever since you joined, but since the best person to answer them all is Erle himself, why don't you ask him?

    Maybe you can give us all some feedback when he replies?
  16. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Thank you for the suggestion.
    But I don't see the need to prove to myself what I am sure of. His unquestioning disciples might want to take that up with Erle himself.

    Over the last few week, ever since Mad-Bagua asked about the Erle-Ho Ho Choy - Jiang Rong Qiao or Gao Yi Shen issue, I fired off a bunch of emails to my Hong Kong friends. They indicated to me that Erle's statement is incorrect.
    They said it is common knowledge in Hong Kong, (Ho Ho Choi is from Hong Kong), that Ho Ho Choy learnt Gao style Bagua from Gao Yi Shen.

    JRQ ( Jiang Rong Qiao) style is essentially Cheng (Ting Hua) Bagua, and is different from Gao style.

    This explain's why MAP poster KAT, whom I have a lot of respect for, says the Bagua he learnt from Erle appears different from the one he learnt in Taiwan despite both being " JRQ "styles.

    KAT, was of course unaware of Erle's incorrect claim.

    Also are you even aware that Erle studied Bagua for no more than 2 years (max) in Hong Kong under translated instructions? ( His Tai Chi training is longer,4-5 years, and I have no dispute with his Tai Chi)

    In other words, I choke when I hear Erle claim to be a Bagua Master with such a short duration of training!

    My goodness, if that's the current criteria, I should be a Great Grand Master of several styles....

    I hope you can now see why I am concerned that he is diluting and ruining the good name of Bagua. Ironical for a man who has criticised others for watering down Tai Chi into a non lethal activity ( and I will agree with Erle on that point)
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
  17. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    I don't think you'll see any unquestioning disciples, as you refer to.

    So you won't even give Erle the courtesy of answering for himself? That seems strange.
  18. Uncle Bill

    Uncle Bill Valued Member

    So does Erle teach Gao Yi Sheng's bagua or Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua?

    If he teaches Jiang Rong Qiao's bagua, as appears to be the case, then he could not have learnt from Ho Ho Choy as he claims.
  19. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    May I ask then what is your lineage to validate wether or not you are qualified to make such statements..??
  20. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    .. and may also I add a request. How's that axe coming along Soggycat? Grinding going ok? Sharp enough yet? :rolleyes:
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