Enhanced CRB and ISA Checks

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by manchesterdojo, May 13, 2009.

  1. manchesterdojo

    manchesterdojo Valued Member

    http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=5025

    I've just been on a seminar about this and wondered how the costs will affect Bujinkan instructors running dojos?

    We're putting 10 people through the screening process to comply with the new regulation as they all could, at some point, be responsible for teaching children or vulnerable adults.
     
  2. K0koro

    K0koro Valued Member

    Will be interesting. Having spoken to the CRB on several occasions if you have someone who is self employed they cannot get a CRB check done unless it is through a governing body, or you are an employer. And of course the CRB is only valid at that moment of checking, hopefully these will be addressed, as being a part of the Bujinkan doesnt mean your in a governing body.
     
  3. K0koro

    K0koro Valued Member

    Further update, just spoken to the CRB, and i have been given a contact number for the ISA, the CRB still cannot be done for someone who is self employed, but the ISA might have further details. Will post if i get anything, Could be interesting for a number of Martial Artists if they are in a self employed status
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    An alternative to a martial arts governing body (or sports governing body) is membership of the IfL (Institute for Learning) which is the National Governing body for adult and further education. Of course membership or affiliation with the IfL does mean that instructors should be working towards teaching qualifications (eg PTLLS, CTLLS, QTLS) - but then you should be doing that anyway as we are not far of the day when the main instructor will have to have those qualifications.
     
  5. garth

    garth Valued Member

    jwt posted

    I'm actually trying to do that as we speak, although you may have some problems joining as the website is set up wrongly.

    If you fill in the fields to say that you are going to take a course i.e. PTTLS then the next question asks when you took it.

    You cannot get passed this field.

    I have spent the last week trying to contact them over this as I need to register as the local county council is sorting out my training.

    Garth
     
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I encountered similar problems with the direct debit field. It wasn't a secure page, so I didn't want to put my details in, so I had to say I wasn't paying by direct debit and then download a direct debit form.

    The solution to your problem is perhaps not to say that you are going to take a course while doing the registration process.
     
  7. garth

    garth Valued Member

    You cant, and anything else is lying. Not a good thing to do when your working as a lecturer in an academic area.

    Garth
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hmm - I don't seem to remember having this problem or this question. But then I already had QTS with a PGCE and an additional PTLLS when I registered.
     
  9. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    Just to be clear, none of this is necessary if you don't teach kids, right?
     
  10. garth

    garth Valued Member

    jwt posted

    Thats why. You entered PGCE and then the next question asks when you completed it.

    But if you say your are going to do a course you cant answer the question that says "When did you complete it"

    Garth
     
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Uncertain. There is movement away from in house coaching and instructing qualifications towards everyone having to have nationally recognised standards in coaching and teaching. In this respect the martial arts industry is one of the rogues of the adult education and sports sector. Ultimately it comes down to ensuring professional standards.

    The downside of this naturally will be cost, and that may be a problem for people running small clubs.
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Uncertain. There is movement away from in house coaching and instructing qualifications towards everyone having to have nationally recognised standards in coaching and teaching. In this respect the martial arts industry is one of the rogues of the adult education and sports sector. Ultimately it comes down to ensuring professional standards.

    The downside of this naturally will be cost, and that may be a problem for people running small clubs.

    If however your question is related to the CRB check. I would imagine that you will need to have a CRB check if you might be teaching vulnerable adults. Under current legislation, you can't 'refuse' to teach them. However, this requirement is something the client may look for and most insurers will demand.
     
  13. manchesterdojo

    manchesterdojo Valued Member

    They are also necessary if teaching 'vulnerable adults' (a definition can be found here: http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/social/adultprot/adultprotection.htm)

    It is also important to note you may not necessarily have to be directly teaching kids but if, for example, you teach in a sports centre, you might be deemed to have regular contact with children and therefore require the checks. There is potential that you will need to provide proof of these checks to any location you teach at.

    It is still a bit vague at the moment and every local authority will have a different level of enforcement but it is worth looking into in your own area.

    We are getting everyone checked, and first aid certified, as we are planning a kids class and therefore feel it is imperative. Salford City Council are processing the CRBs for us but we will then have to process everyone through ISA once that comes into force.
     
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Ok

    Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons.

    I'm about to do a talk for a school at 2pm today on WW2. (Just about to change into my uniform)

    The school do NOT require me to be CRB checked or ISA checked.

    Neither do the school require helpers on trips to be CRB checked.

    I have also performed magic for vulnerable adults again without a CRB check.

    Why is this you might ask?

    Because CRB is the most misundersood part of British legislation going.

    Put briefly a lot of people are undergoing CRB checks when you dont need them, and people are losing jobs over CRB checks when the company should not have requested them.

    Check out this page from the Government CRB website, and see if you can see the catergory that applies to being a martial arts instructor.

    http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=1855

    Note: it says

    The only one that comes close is...

    However this relates to work which is defined on the page as...

    For the purpose of the ROA 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975, the definition of 'working with children' includes any work that is:

    Unless you club is a educational institution which in most part they are not, unless you stretch the definition, you do not need a CRB check according to the list.

    And the catergory where a martial arts instructor should be listed is here...

    These are people excempt from ROA. No sports instructors mentined at all.

    You may also want to read this (Yes free checks for volunteers)

    http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=5061




    Garth
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  15. Zodiac Monkey

    Zodiac Monkey New Member

    With regards to self employed people not being able to get a CRB. My partner is a self employed child minder and has to be CRB registered. So the advice that has been received may be incorrect
     
  16. manchesterdojo

    manchesterdojo Valued Member

    Hi Garth,

    That's true of the CRBs but the new legislation, that I think affects everyone, is to do with ISA's (Independant Safeguarding Authority) new legislation which extends way beyond CRB Checks. It is worth visiting this website http://www.isa-gov.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=321

    But here is a rough outline:

    New Legistlation
    It is not currently a legal requirement for self-employed tutors or volunteers to have a CRB check. However, there will be major changes when the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 and the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups (Northern Ireland) Order 2007 come into effect in October 2009. The Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA) has been created to help prevent unsuitable people from working with children and vulnerable adults. ISA works in partnership with the Criminal Records Bureau, and will assess every person who wants to work or volunteer with vulnerable people (‘vulnerable people’ being defined as anyone under the age of 18 and anyone over 18 who is considered ‘vulnerable’ under the terms of the Act – such as anyone requiring assistance in the conduct of their own affairs).

    It will be an offence not to register with the ISA – penalties are a fine or up to five years in prison.
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Continued (Quote)

    http://www.crb.gov.uk/pdf/OTS_CRB Volunteer Guidance.pdf

    Garth
     
  18. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Manchester Dojo

    This is of course vulnerable children and vulnerable adults NOT (If I dare say this) Normal children.

    Garth
     
  19. manchesterdojo

    manchesterdojo Valued Member

    I'm afraid it's not that simple. The term used is 'vulnerable people' and ‘vulnerable people’ are defined as anyone under the age of 18 and, separately, anyone over 18 who is considered ‘vulnerable’ under the terms of the Act. So that means if you teach anyone under 18 you will need an ISA check.

    At the seminar, run by Salford City Council, one example they used were parents wanting to help at a school fete. They stated that anyone wishing to act as a volunteer would have to be checked via the new legislation.

    I'll try and get their presentation slides uploaded as it may help clear up the issues.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    The problem with all this I see is that you are not a voluntary organisation. You are a club, a society, and so far i have been unable to find any mention of a club or society in this regard to the ISA or CRB.

    You have stated that...

    .

    But the website make no mention of clubs or societies. it relates to employers or employees.

    and

    It will be a criminal offence for an employer to allow a barred person, or a person who is not yet registered with the ISA, to work for any length of time in any regulated activity.

    It will be a criminal offence for an employer to take on a person in a regulated activity if they fail to check that person’s status.

    http://www.isa-gov.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=314

    But this is employers only. As a martial arts club does not employ anyone how can they commit an offence?

    The employess responsibilities are...

    So lets take the average martila arts instructor.

    1/ He is not emplyed by anyone.
    2/ He is not employing anyone.

    and

    3/ If he did take an ISA check would he be responsible for himself stopping himself working with children?

    And in fact why would he take the check?

    Garth
     

Share This Page