English Martial Arts??

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Geordie Boy, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    I beg to differ.

    George Silver offered the scuffle between Vincentio Saviolo and Bartholomew Brambler as an example of the True Arte of Pynt Lifting:

    "Then said the master of defence: "Sir I have a school of defence in the town, will it please you to go thither?" "Your school?" said master Vincentio, "What shall I do at your school?" "Play with me (said the master) at the rapier and dagger, if it please you." "Play with you?" said master Vincentio, "If I play with you, I will hit you 1,2,3,4 thrusts in the eye together." Then said the master of defence: "If you can do so, it is the better for you, and the worse for me, but surely I can hardly believe that you can hit me. But yet once again I heartily pray you good sir, that you will go to my school and play with me." "Play with you?" said master Vincentio (very scornfully), "by God let me scorn to play with you." With the word scorn, the master of defence was very much moved, and up with his great English fist, and struck master Vincentio such a box on the ear that he fell over and over, his legs just against a buttery hatch, whereon stood a great black jack. The master of defence fearing the worst, against Vincentio his rising, caught the black jack into his hand, being more than half full of beer. Vincentio lustily started up, laying his hand upon his dagger, & with the other hand pointed with his finger, saying very well: "I will cause (you) to lie in jail for this gear?), 1,2,3,4 years. And well said the master of defence: "Since you will drink no wine, will you pledge me in beer? I drink to all cowardly knaves in England, and I think you to be the very most coward of them all." With that he cast all the beer upon him, notwithstanding Vincentio having nothing but his gilt rapier, and dagger about him, and the other for his defence the black jack, would not at that time fight it out."

    Hey, Bramble was just making use of an environmental weapon! :)
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hi Prithee,
    Welcome to MAP, say hi to Terry for me and tell him I will see him next year at one of the events.


  3. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Mediaeval English weaponry training in UK

    Hi there,

    You can do 1-day taster seminar(s) in mediaeval English weaponary here in the UK. Check out the Harlequin Combat System at www.praisespring.co.uk or e-mail info@praisespring.co.uk
  4. Stephen Hand

    Stephen Hand New Member

    What are Mr Garrett's sources for his teachings?
  5. OBCT

    OBCT New Member

    Won't it be all Wing Chun stylised ? Or is there some background information missing, like his studies of medieval England or some kind of marker that would warrant his teaching of traditional English martial arts, rather than his opinion, probably fairly heavily based on Wing Chun.
  6. Nick K

    Nick K Sometimes a Valued Member

    Anyone read Tom Brown's Schooldays? Set in 18/19 century England. At the beginning of the book, before Tom goes off to school, there is a detailed description of a stick fighting contest at a fair. Tom is also taught a variety of wrestling holds in his childhood, one of which I think he uses to defeat his arch enemy Flashman. Ah, the benefits of a classical education!

    English MA seem to be light on the use of high kicks/kicking combos. Is this right? I reember at school that kicking your opponenet was regarded somehow as unsporting and that 'kicking was for donkeys'. Hee Haw.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2005
  7. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Hi again,

    I've no idea about Mr Garrett's sources for his teachings, as I haven't been to the school.

    Thus, I also don't know whether or not it will be unduly wing chun influenced. Though a wing chun background doesn’t mean that the Harlequin system is necessarily wing chun based. (My JKD instructor is a 5th degree tae kwon do practitioner, yet his JKD is Dan Inosanto lineage jun fan.)

    I might pop along to one of the Harlequin system taster days, in which case I’ll post what it’s like on MAP.
  8. The Damned

    The Damned New Member

    As already mentioned, most info regarding english MA's will be regarding weapons. Remember Martial art (relating to military) is different to 'combat art'. If we talk about martial arts, then surely we should be looking for 'systems of combat' taught within military establishments as a means of warfare.
    Wrestling and boxing, as far as i know don't count as martial arts, unless certain parts of historical info elude me and they actually taught these to knights/soldiers etc.
    Having said that, i wouldn't call anything modern an english martial art, unless you see it being used in a military combative structure.
    In the marines i was taught unarmed combat, but having already been indoctrinated into eastern martial arts it wasn't hard to identify common jujitsu type locks and even some karate style take-downs, along with soem judo throws etc.
    I doubt very much that we will find any purely domesticated fighting system, as there is so much influence from elsewhere in the world.
    But to recap, i would expect most talk of english MA's being about weapons, mainly longbow, sword, spear, dagger.
  9. OBCT

    OBCT New Member

    Cotswold shin dance, Morris dancing, Highland fling etc, all adaptable, and most likely from a MA source.
  10. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    Why don't wrestling and boxing "count" as martial arts?

    Wrestling is probably the oldest combative discipline, and European knights certainly included wrestling in their curriculum. Wrestling was done both on foot and on horseback (i.e., the idea was to grapple the other guy out of the saddle).

    In fact, for many fight masters during the Middle Ages and Renaissance, wrestling was seen as the foundation for all other fighting.

    As for boxing, it was part of the curriculum of self-defense, that was taught my "Masters of Defence" in England. During the 18th century, the curriculum typically included swordplay (French smallsword, as well as native English backsword & singlestick), polearms (quarterstaff), and pugilism.
  11. OBCT

    OBCT New Member

    Terry Brown and Company of Maisters

    "The ancient Greek Olympics put wrestling on the map. Wrestling made it's Olympic debut in the Games of 708 B.C. It was apparently a much more violent, punishing sport in those early days, when it had closer ties to military training. Wrestling spread through the Roman world, as well as other early civilizations in India, China, Japan and throughout the Middle East."

    http://www.cambridgeabc.co.uk/web pages/About/History.htm

    "The Sumerians used wrestling and fist tactics, since hands were weapons given to the earliest man. He used them to fight off savage beasts and undoubtedly to conquer human enemies. The man striving for perfection in the use of hands in battle, no doubt practiced the fist arts and the specimens discovered by Dr. Speiser showed men at much performance. There appears to have been a lapse in the pugilistic arts from the Mespotamian era until about 1750 BC In about 900 BC, a Greek monarch Theseus son of Acgens, revived pugilistic arts to satisfy his carving for blood and death. He requisitioned certain of his father’s warriors (or gladiators). They would sit on flat stones with their fists encased in leather thongs, and punched one another till one of them died."

    Both arts have been used for military or combat purposes in their history (Martial usage) so are definite MA without a doubt.

    Both have also been converted into spectator sports, so can be seen as non MA in the modern day, but as sports.

    Knights and soldiers used pugilistic and grappling/wrestling techniques.
    Remnants of them are found as i've said, are still in Morris dancing, the Cotswald shindance, the highland fling, country dancing amongst others. The bayonet twirling (for want of a better word) drills used today by the present army has descended from a line of English MA, a comlete system that at one time existed.
  12. Stephen Hand

    Stephen Hand New Member

    This is not borne out by the historical usage of the term martial art. The very first art that I am aware of being called a martial art is rapier fencing, very definitely not a battlefield art. At no stage in history has the term martial art been restricted to battlefield arts. The term arises from the older term "Arts of Mars", so the term relates to the Roman God of War, not specifically to the military.
  13. Abraxas

    Abraxas New Member

    This is a very "Draeger-esque" definition of the term and I can only imagine it being supported in the most pedantic of hoplological circles.

    If you want to get technical, the OED defines "martial" as "of or appropriate to war" (my italics). Surely this encompasses virtually any combative system since most fighting methods at one time or another will have been appropriate to war.

    Your definition doesn't reflect common usage and is simply obstructing discussion on what had been an interesting thread.
  14. OBCT

    OBCT New Member

    Argument aside, apart from the actual systems used for combat in Europe (England specifically) does anyone else have an interest in (or know anything about) the Esoteric teachings that accompany them ?

    Things like the Irish celtic legend of cuchalanin, and the stick he used to kill the hound with.

    Chinese Kung Fu has a load of legends, myths and religious backing to learn aswell, i'm sure the European (and/or non far eastern MA) must have too, i just haven't heard of many.
  15. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Hi there,

    I'm curious, how much unarmed combat training do you get in the marines?

    My instructor has had a fair bit of informal training from a former unarmed combat instructor in the marines. (The syllabus seems larger than I'd expect.)

    I gather from reading this month's Combat magazine that the US marines are now learning some BJJ as their unarmed combat system ...
  16. The Damned

    The Damned New Member

    Ok, your 1st sentence; with respect, take the silver spoon out your mouth and speak in plain tongue.
    2nd sentence; i suggested that was what martial meant, i didn't categorically state that what i said was fact, i merely suggested and thought (as i have been told) that it was common conception.
    3rd sentence; its an opinion, like everyone else's on this thread. I don't see how it can be construed as 'obstructing'. On reflection your laborious use of the english language sounds like you are talking down to the rest of us mere mortals.
    So, accept the opinion, constructively correct me if you like, others have, and for that i bow to their better knowledge. YOU on the other hand, seem to be stuck up your own **** enough for me not to listen to you meanderings. A pity, as you may actually have something interesting to say on occasion.
  17. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Enough of the personal attacks already.

    No further warning will be given.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2005
  18. Abraxas

    Abraxas New Member

    If I have then it seems daft to miss out on it just because you're prejudiced against the way I write. Ah well, your loss...

    But it seems ironic that you should accuse me of talking down to people. At the end of the day, I'm not the one who's arrogant enough to hold up this discussion by trying to redefine common terms.

    I'm now going to duck out and let this thread get back on topic. I hope you'll do the same.
  19. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    There is a thread somewhre in the WMA forum about celtic legend or something simalir. you could do a search or ask Louie.
  20. The Damned

    The Damned New Member

    i will a offer semi apology to anyone offended. It was in reply/retaliation to Abraxas's 3rd sentence. I've re-read my post and nowhere in it do i 'state as fact' what martial meant. I actually said words like, 'as far as i know', which implies that i'm not 100% sure, and it invites correction from better advised people so that i can learn more, not someone suggesting i'm obstructing the topic by being incorrect. I said
    It was my understanding, nothing more. Other folks have posted stuff on this thread that are wrong, but have they been accused of obstructing the topic?

    Anyway, i've explained my reasons for my reply and to actually agree with Abraxas, i don't want to wonder offtopic any more. If knowone agrees with my opinions then all they need to do is ignore them and/or correct me.

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