Ending at the Beginning?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by KickChick, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    One basic "rule" of performing our hyungs in class is that we must begin and end in the very same spot.

    How important do you think this is in pattern practice?

    Do you feel that this "rule" can be taken to an absurd extreme in tournaments, where ending six inches away from your starting point can mean the difference between 1st and 5th place even though your performance was mesmerizing (?)
  2. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    The theory behind finishing where you start is that if all of your stances are consistantly the same length/depth, you should finish in the same exact spot you started.

    As for judging tourneys, it really comes down to how tight the competition is?
  3. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    .... also beginning and ending each pattern at exactly the same spot on the floor indicates the proper performance of all movements including stances Andy however I found that this is not entirely true for all patterns.
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    We tend to be a bit more flexible when it comes to the ITF forms beginning and ending in the same spot. Some of ours do and some don't. We do "try" to have then begin and end in the same spot, but tend to focus more on the movement and technqiues within it, especially when grading them or judging them.
  5. Zen TKD Warrior

    Zen TKD Warrior New Member

    When observing a student do their form, I don't mark the starting position. I am more concerned with their movements. Are they correct and not sloppy? Are they chambering and if so, is it done correctly?
  6. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    As hard as I try, and I really do, my feet just don't cooperate. :D
  7. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    **Warning** **Warning** **WTF version**
    Sorry not very familar with other TKD form sets but . . .

    For instructors this is a good way to see if color belts are being consistant in their stances, left and right. If they are finishing their pattern off mark it's a good bet that they have inconsistancies some where due to the symetrical style of the Taegeuk poomse.

    I agree that technique should be regarded first, but the stances are also part of the technique are they not? Again simply a tool to see if you are balanced.

    As for the Taegeuks there is also the symetrical/circle philosophy involved. Although a little bit less noticable this is a reason why the Taegeuks also are supposed to begin and end on the same spot.
  8. Dojo

    Dojo Shotokan fanatic

    Although I don't do TKD, the problem is similar with our enbu sen (movement path) in the katas. In our katas you have to go back to the starting point too.
    I don't know if it should be That important, especially if the person was great as you KickChick imply, still if they were moving correctly, then they should have return to the starting point. I would take it into account if there were 2 ore more students with similar performance and this could be a good way to differentiate. An inch is hard to spot, still the bigger the distance between the real and the correct ending point the lower the place a student would place in the final list.
  9. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    I'm interested in which patterns you feels don't meet up KC?

    I've had endless arguments with students about this topic and had to get some movements clarified from Grandmaster Rhee, mainly because I wasn't convinced myself. :D

    I can get all my patterns, Juche excluding ATM (damn split kick), to end at the same spot quite consistently now.

    P.s. (Internally) Please don't say Won-Hyo, please don't say Won-Hyo, please don't say Won-Hyo,please don't say Won-Hyo ;)
  10. NRees

    NRees Taekwon-Do II Degree

    KC, every ITF pattern was designed to start and end on the exact same spot. I have the videos of the patterns on the Legacy CD-Rom series and if done correctly then every pattern should follow this rule. I know it seems crazy - especially for anyone who's done Juche but it's a good measure of your accuracy and stances. With regards to using it to judge by, i think that if a tournament panel resorts to such extreme measures then either they weren't looking at the guys doing their pattern or they're just looking for a reason to remove you from the tournament :woo:
  11. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Our association judges out of 5 categories (all scored out of 5):

    Technical Content
    Breath Control

    Making it back to the start position comes under technical content. You miss by a little -1, miss by a lot -2 way off and it is a mucher lower pattern than grade -3.

    E.g. A Blue tag performing Toi-Gye and missing might lose 1pt a black belt would lose -3.

    If as you say, techincal consistency alows you to get back to your mark then surely if you do not make it some of the stances were incorrect, thus warrantinga deduction for Technical content.

    In my expeience this is usually used to decide in the early rounds against junior grades who genrally do not have any stand out features in thier pattern......

    . and trust me I've argued with many a parent the same ;)
  12. NRees

    NRees Taekwon-Do II Degree

    Tosh, I agree with what you are saying. But what about in patterns such as Choong-Moo where there is a jumping side kick, or in Juche where there are many jumping/flying kicks - these techniques are difficult to land in the correct position can be difficult (especially if you have long legs like me, I tend to 'overshoot' the landing position :woo: ) and other techniques can have an effect on where you end up. So it isn't just the stances that can be incorrect, so it is a combination of things that can lead to not ending up on that precious spot. So to use this as a judgement of wether someone is performing their stances correctly can be a bit dodgy, better off to look at their stances etc while they are doing their pattern.

    Just some of my thoughts ;)
  13. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    "Won-Hyo Won-Hyo...."

    If you seriously think about it to be able to return to exactly the same spot as you started would actually require a measure of imperfection no?

    If you try to perform all the stances and movements perfectly, you very rarely end at your beginning without making corrections that make the stances and movements imperfect.... understand?

    I'm only on my 14th form but from what I understand the more advanced forms are more difficult to come back to original starting point.

    I tried locating this in Gen. Choi's encyclopedia but do not see anything on this. Did he advocate this in performance of hyungs?.... or is this purely a competition standard?

    I do know is many Japanese styles.... that this is very important ideal in kata. symbolizing the philosophy of life cycles that we all come into the world the same way and leave the same way.
  14. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    I know that in the Tang Soo Do forms I was taught that originally you are supposedot finish where you start, but there are forms that won't work in. If you go one direction in forwards stances and then return in back stances there is no way you should finish in the same location.
  15. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Andy, humour me for a second please . . . . what if you shortened your forward stances to match the length of your back stances, or vice versa? In your training/experience is this possible in your forms?
  16. NRees

    NRees Taekwon-Do II Degree

    KC, if you ever get a chance to look at the Legacy CD-Rom series then take a look at the patterns. Every pattern I've had chance to watch returns to the same spot they began. I don't know if Gen. Choi advocated this fact in performance of tuls. But to me it seems that if a pattern was designed to start and end on the same spot, then that's how it should be done.
  17. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Difficult, but not impossible.

    Perseverence young Jedi. ;)

    He did at the seminar I went to :D.

    I honestly used to believe this myself, but after examination found there were things, partcularly foot pivoting consitency and things that the encyclopedia explains innaccuarately or badly that casued a lot of these problems.

    I'd be interested to hear which pattern in particular people have trouble with just to see if it's uniform across the board. Here's my list being completley honest which annoyed my over the years ;):

    Dan Gun,
    Do San,
    Won Hyo - for years :mad:
    Joong Gun
    Choong Moo
    Ge Baek

    All for similar reasons ATEOTD but now pretty confident in all.

    Perhaps part of the reason I have an insight here is I've been in the team competition for the past 3 years. This involves everyone not only being consistent in themselves but with each other as well!!
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  18. rtkd-badger

    rtkd-badger Fundimentaly Manipulated

    I usually finish 6 to 10 inches off the mark. This thread made me think of something else though. If we know our pattern that well then we should be able to do it with our eyes closed. Ok most of us have done this. Try to do your pattern in reverse, if you know it that well you should also know it back to front. I tried and came up very poorly which made me believe that I dont know my hyung as well as I would like to
  19. Nick K

    Nick K Sometimes a Valued Member

    I don't know if you have the same problem with joon gun that I have, which is that I overshoot slightly on the return. The 'solution' I have found is to slightly lengthen my walking stance on the way out, and to make sure that I dont move forwards doing the release moves. It's probably a fudge, but we are all biomechanically different.
    I adopted a slightly different fudge with do san and alterd the angle at which the kicks went out.

    This may mean of course that Im now doing it correctly (more or less)

    It's also debatable what start and finish on the same spot mean, as the starting and finishing stances are different. My understanding is that if you return to Choon-bi, you should be on the same spot.

    Things that have helped me with accuracy are
    1. Practice
    2. Doing the footwork only, once the pattern is basically mastered
    3. Doing it with eyes shut

    Hope this helps
  20. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    A common fudge amoungst students and it should be an indicator to what going on.

    Instead of looking for a solution look at the problem. I met if yu get your measuring tape out you;ll find it's true.

    Joong Gun on the way back contains many pivots, which if not performed correctly or consistently can lead to you travelling backwards too early. the second major point here is with the side kicks and the L stance punches.

    90% of Blue belts perform fixed stance punches here without realising. L-stance punching is very unatural and fixed stance is very easy to slip into. The second bone of contention is the foot placment after the sidekick(s) usually meaning students make up ground where they really should'nt be.

    All this took year of videoing and other instructor pointing out mistakes where I reall ycouldn't see any. Only after teaching could I reall yappreciate the mistakes I was making myself becasue I could see other studetns making the same one ;).

Share This Page