empty hand

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by blanker, Mar 31, 2009.

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  1. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Okey dokey sheriff P. Bear sir :fight3: :p :)
     
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    OK Sheriff, Back to the subject at hand or should I say empty hand.

    Now going up to random Pinoy Hospital workers *isn't the best idea*, and let me explain why?

    Firstly, imagine you are at work and a complete stranger walks up to you and asks 'Teach me your empty hands'. What do you think the reaction is going to be? And as you are approaching a hospital worker you may have just bought yourself a one-way ticket to the funny farm don’t you think?

    Secondly, you can drop into any hospital in the UK and find Pinoy's working there because we have of late had a large influx of Pinoy hospital workers to the UK to make up the shortfall of people who in this country are unwilling to work in the conditions required in the NHS and a dam good job they are doing too in the long hours that is required of them, but that does not mean that just because they are Filipino they automatically know FMA. Why?

    Well lets go on to my third point: Martial Arts in the Philippines like any other country in the world is a minority pass time, the vast majority of the population know of martial arts via films and TV and that is where it stops. Also the martial arts that are practiced in the Philippines like any other country in the world is made up of numerous arts from around the world, e.g. TKD, Karate, Ju-Jitsu, Kung Fu, Boxing etc etc, and guess what, the most popular martial arts trained in the Philippines is Tae Kwon Do, followed by other arts such as Karate, Ju Jitsu, Kung Fu, Boxing etc. And FMA? Surprise surprise, well like most countries around the world FMA is in the Philippines is minority too.

    Now lets take a look at the Empty Hands of the FMA and what a minefield your getting into there too.

    You have so many variations it can be very confusing:

    Panantukan: On the surface this looks much like kickboxing with some guntings and elbows more predominantly seen within the JKD circles.

    Pangamot: Not exclusive to but a great example of this can be seen within Doce Pares Original Multi Style, this version of their empty hands although it does have kicks and punches too is based on the Tapi-Tapi principle from the weapons and looks very different from the first one I mentioned.

    Eskrido: More commonly known within the Cacoy Doce Pares Group, although still Doce Pares will look totally different from the Original Multi Styles Pangamot, and although Eskrido is a sort of combination of Aikido and Eskrima it looks nothing like Aikido, the only resemblance being that the opponent often is seen flying though the air after receiving a joint lock.

    Combat Judo: Now again this has nothing to do with Judo and looks nothing like Judo but involves you getting to grips with your opponent and tying them up in knots, a system that often involves dealing with a knife attacker and involves you locking them into a position in order to restrain them and / or finish them off. You can see fine examples of this in systems such as Balintawak, Lapunti Arnis De Abanico and San Miguel, now they are or where at one time all part of Doce Pares but their empty hand systems will look and feel different to that of the Doce Pares Original Multi Style System and the Cacoy Doce Pares groups.

    Sikaran: Known as a empty hand system from the Philippines on first glance you would think that you are looking at Tae Kwon Do, but your not, it looks similar but is very different and just because they are known for their empty hands does not mean they don’t do weapons.

    Yaw Yan: Again known for their empty hand skills and in the same way you may look upon Sikaran looking like TKD you would on first glance think Yaw Yan was Muay Thai, but it is not and it does not mean they don’t use weapons, for instance you will hear the Yaw Yan'ist use terms such as Bolo Punch, this gives you a clue as to where this particular technique comes from.

    Then we can go deeper into systems such as Dirty Boxing, Kuntao Silat, Buno, Dumog etc and the minefield gets deeper and deeper, bearing in mind that their are also those Eskrima Kali Arnis Styles that add in Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Boxing etc etc. Confused yet?

    Each styles empty hand may look different for several reasons, but the main reason being is that their empty hands will all depend on the weapons they use, how they use them, the range they prefer and their dominant area of combat.

    You may find some one who is willing to teach you just the empty hand portion of their particular style, but will you really understand it? I teach empty hands as a separate section within my club in Torquay but I explain with certain techniques why they are the way they are, it is all because of the weapons we use and how we use them.

    For instance I was teaching an Arnis class on Thursday to some Wing Chun and Tai Chi guys, both of whom could relate to what where doing with the weapons because their empty hands looked similar. So I showed them the empty hand version of what we where learning, the Tai Chi guy could relate to the body movements and flow and the Wing Chun Guy could relate to the trapping and feeding. But they could also see slight differences and what they might deem extra moves within their own systems, but when we put the weapons back into the game they understood why we moved like we don, they could see that although their where no weapons involved at this time, we would naturally assume they where there as you never know do you.

    Our empty hand skills are based in and around our skills using the weapons which is why I said before, you have to have a good understanding of the weapons first to have a better understanding of the empty hand skills being taught to you, and what empty hand skills will you receive, well that all depends on the style/group/individual you are training with as like the FMA styles the empty hands that are employed as just as wide and varied.

    If you want to see what I mean by varied first hand then why not pop along to this years FMA Festival in June in Romford, here you will see 21 top instructors teaching 21 different styles and each of them can if you ask show you some of their empty hands and you may be surprised to see 21 different variations.

    But all of that information is just from my limited knowledge of the FMA and I have only been doing it for just under 30 years and yes even now I still see different ways of doing the same thing and different variations of the art every time I go back to the Philippines to train. Don’t take my word for it though, for what do I know. Go out there, have a look around and you may be surprised at what you find, but don’t be surprised if it confuses you at first simply because group A does it differently from group B who do it differently from group C, that my friend is FMA.

    And remember just because some one say's it is so, does not make it so. Check them out first make sure they are who they say they are for beleive it or not their are those out there that will claim to be something simply to prize a few extra bucks from your pocket.

    Happy hunting

    Pat

    ** Pat, given recent issues I've toned this statement down. While I agree with your argument I feel that in the current climate alittle diplomacy is best. If you are unhappy with this then feel free to PM me.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2009
  3. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    nice post.

    just to add a little something to the mix.

    to paraphrase the FMA FAQ. "how many empty hand styles are there?" "almost as many as FMAers."
     
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Please discontinue the personal spats. Polar Bear's asked several times for the organisational politics to be excluded from this thread.

    Next offence brings out the bans.

    Ta,

    M.
     
  5. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I have no problem with that, but I wont stand and say nothing when people lie about what I said and when I said it as for some strange reason I take it personally. If I have to be banned for standing up for myself then sa la vi as they say. But as I said at the end of my last post, lets leave it at that eh!

    But if they want to try to take a chunck from me then they should not be surprised when I bite back.

    So onwards and upwards, any more veiws on the empty hand thingy???

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Pat, if you want to bite back then I suggest you do it off the forum. I don't know the truth of the situation and in all actuality I don't really care but please no more bun fights.
    From now on lets leave the politics and personalities are the doors and talk FMA.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I'm hoping the argument's over, Pat, but if any posters try to stir things up again, please hit the report post button and let the mods do our jobs.

    It's just a matter of trying to keep the discussion about martial arts rather than about the politics of specific organisations as this can alienate people who are not concerned with the orgs in question.
     
  8. Mark Southwold

    Mark Southwold Valued Member

    Did i miss something?

    Erm ... what was the question about?

    ;)
     
  9. Mark Southwold

    Mark Southwold Valued Member

    Oh yes, I remember. I like fma but certainly never looked at it from an empty hands point of view. Why not learn stick from the sticks guys and do wing chun for empty hands. It worked for Bruce Lee didn't it.

    That's a serious answer .. no flaming dudes!
     
  10. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I would advise not thinking about it as FMA-style empty hands versus another-style empty hands. As has been said a few times already, there are lots of FMA empty hand approaches. Many of which draw from other styles anyway. I don't look at it as pangamot or mano mano being particular styles. Instead, they're an acknowledgment that empty hand matters. And FMAers often draw on whatever sources they have available to address the matter. In the past, that might mean karate or judo. Later generations might draw on muay thai or krav maga or whatever. The point being that you're suggesting a decision that doesn't necessarily exist.

    The defining characteristic of FMA empty hands, to my mind, is less the specific maneuvers and more the "filter" that any technique, regardless of what style it's drawn from, must meet certain criteria. It has to adequately provide for some of the assumptions built into FMA (e.g., the other guy has a knife... or several).


    Stuart
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Damien has decided he doesn't want to post on MAP anymore. This was his decision, as such I would appreciate no more posts about him as he is unable to respond.

    Thanks,
    The Bear.
     
  12. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Sorry to see that this situation has gotten so out of hand. It's such a pity that people feel that they have to leave MAP because of the behaviour of some of its members. Perhaps if the mods had stepped in sooner none of this mudslinging and namecalling would have happened, but then again there are some on here who seem to be a law unto themselves and seem to get away with just about anything and act as if they are a mod.
     
  13. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    There are some similarities between wing chun and eskrima empty hand, in fact there is a seminar coming up which deals with just that. I believe that that tonglonglengjai from the kung fu forum would know the details if anyone was interested.
     
  14. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Good luck Damien. Of course this is his choice and I wish him well. Let's hope that we don't ruin the thread further with a barrage of 'supporter' posts!!!

    Back to the topic.

    There are many benefits to learning from the weapon first and that, in my view, is part of what makes the FMA special and more effective than some counterparts. Some examples of benefits include:

    Faster reaction speed...because the tip of the stick moves faster than a pure empty-hand technique, so reactions build towards the advanced speed.

    Structural strength...a correctly performed weapon techniques provides a stronger base for it's empty-hand variation.

    Angles of attack...the practitioner gets used to attacks coming from anywhere, rather than a limited number of targets, such as face, groin, thigh etc.

    Analysis...the FMA greatly improves analytical skills and creativity of response, both with and without a weapon.

    Awareness / focus...being attacked with a stick or knife does take awareness and focus to much higher level, not least because a stick hurts!!!

    Hope this helps as a start

    Gumagalang

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    GBUK, I said this matter is finished. I have just taken over here and there will be no more sly digs from anyone. Your comment above is a case in point.

    I suggest you ALL put it behind you because anyone who keeps this going will be taking a holiday from MAP. This is the final warning.

    The Bear.
     
  16. Mark Southwold

    Mark Southwold Valued Member

    Thanks for your replies Stuart and Peter, I do of course support Damien but will try not to let that get in the way.:hat:


    Stuart:

    1. The defining characteristic of FMA empty hands, to my mind, is less the specific maneuvers and more the "filter" that any technique, regardless of what style it's drawn from, must meet certain criteria. It has to adequately provide for some of the assumptions built into FMA (e.g., the other guy has a knife... or several).



    This is actually a really interesting point to me because I originally studied unarmed techniques when I was much younger and always felt that they would not necessarily be of much use against a knife wielding hoodie. After training with Damien I believe that I was able to get the idea of this fma 'filter' that Stuart refers to. Its a shame I couldn't find anyone to continue this training with wheen I moved away from London. I am looking forward to getting back into training with Damien and other Doce Pares teachers to further explore this.

    Peter:

    1. Faster reaction speed...because the tip of the stick moves faster than a pure empty-hand technique, so reactions build towards the advanced speed.

    2. Structural strength...a correctly performed weapon techniques provides a stronger base for it's empty-hand variation.

    3. Angles of attack...the practitioner gets used to attacks coming from anywhere, rather than a limited number of targets, such as face, groin, thigh etc.

    4. Analysis...the FMA greatly improves analytical skills and creativity of response, both with and without a weapon.

    5. Awareness / focus...being attacked with a stick or knife does take awareness and focus to much higher level, not least because a stick hurts!!!


    Peter, could you try to explain your points a little bit more because I am not sure that I get this yet.

    1. I find that my reactions, once used to the fact that the hand is or may be holding a weapon are pretty much the same. The focus of the defense and counters seem to be at the elbow, hand and near hand part of the weapon that tend to move at the same speed as an unarmed opponent.

    2. I can't see how the strength of my kicks, punches and dick-slaps can be enhanced through weapon work, maybe I have to experience this more.

    3. I agree. Particularly on the way weapon attacks can change close in and when blocked. Can you find this in other non-fma styles though?

    4. Agreed. But I'm not sure which will make me a better practitioner yet, my chinese roots or this FMA filter.

    5. I agree about the focus because of the potential damage but to be fair I seem to be getting hurt far less when training in FMA. Kicks and punches hurt too!


    Just my thoughts.

    Thanks again.

    Mark
     
  17. vismitananda

    vismitananda Valued Member

    Do you say you have a Chinese root of Martial Arts. In my country the Philippines.

    We treat Chinese Martial Arts as one of the deadly way of arts ever been made by humans.

    Do not worry about those things, It will only end up in a non complete training of the said art you want to learn.

    Things will get change when you are nearly mastering the art.

    I hope I can answer those 1 - 5 questions.

    -Armed and un armed cannot be evaluate as one. When you are armed, you tend to focus on the weapon you are holding hence the weapon will be used in attacks as well as in defence. So the fact that your weapon will save you, you will disable your enemy when it is holding a weapon in a manner that it couldn't use its weapon anymore. While fighting un armed w/ an armed enemy is a lot harder.

    -Are you sure about the word "dick=slaps"? It somehow annoys me when I think of the other thing. :hat:
    Well back to the topic, I humbly suggest that train your kicks and punches in heavy bags, take a light sparring and master the complete form of the kick. Do not focus on fast kicks yet. In this way although the kick power is not that devastated, the form won't destory you.

    -I somehow find this type on Kali. Not very sure.

    - As I've said on my first post, FMA and Chinese roots are a good tandemn.

    - What Art did you choose in FMA? I hope your master/trainer doesn't treating you like a child. Remeber you couldn't master the art w/o experiencing the hurting hits. This is all part of the art, and the more you hit the more you learn from those mistakes.

    I hope I've somehow answer your questions, but I woud suggest you still read Peter's view about this. This is your questions to him. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  18. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    Hi Mark

    Thanks for your reply. For the record, I have known Damien for some time now and am grateful for the considerable respect that he ha always shown me.

    Of course I'll try to address your questions.

    1. While the elbow, forearm, wrist and hand are moving at the same speed, the tip of the stick is moving much faster. Take the 'corkscrew punch' as an example. The thumb will move about 8" (200mm) during the twist. Hold a stick of standard length and the tip will move about 48" (1300mm) in the same time, thus making the tip up to 6 X faster.

    2. Best viewed from the blade perspective rather than stick perspective. Use a basic 'X' (often angles 1 and 4 or 1 and 2) for example. With a stick, it is possible to lead with the palm or back of the hand...a stick is round, so harder to control which part hits. With a blade, this would be a flat of the blade slap in both cases. Apply the empty handed 'X' and this would convert to an attack using the inner forearm and outer forearm. Take a correctly aligned blade slash and this converts to using the bony (little finger edge) of the arm, which has scope to penetrate much more into the attacker.

    3. I believe that some of the other South-East Asian Arts have a similar approach. I find that it makes us focus on defending the entire body, rather than one or two areas. Just pick up on one word...BLOCK. In the FMA systems (Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo and Bahad Zu'Bu Mangtaas Baraw) that I teach, blocking is not a priority. We attack (pre-emptive) whatever becomes available during the incoming strike.

    4. Agreed, but not all CMA will offer the analytical benefit...or certainly not until many years of training. Most JMA or KMA don't have this to any great extent.

    5. Add 'improves mobility' to my earlier list. Could be that the fear of being hit by a stick or stabbed with a knife is making you avoid the attack with more accuracy and focus. Yes, punches and kicks do hurt, but are often still less damaging than an impact or bladed weapon. The latter, even (and especially) an untrained person can maim or kick without any training at all.

    Hope this clarifies my earlier comments for you Mark.

    Gumagalang

    Peter
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  19. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    I am so not looking forwards to learning this :jawdrop: (quickly runs away to PM LabanB in the hope that its not part of the Doce Pares system!!)
     
  20. Musashi2112

    Musashi2112 New Member

    Never found RA in the U.S.

    "well,

    I know I am an outsider on this site because I don't really do forums.
    But,in my original request a few months back about this so called system of Rapid Arnis in the US,I became interested in certain things and started watching this forum just out of interest.
    I kept waiting to see when there was ACTUALLY going to be a Rapid Arnis club IN the US,but,so far nothing,and yet,there is Rapid Arnis USA listed on the Rapid Arnis Intl website with a supposed chief instructor named Paul Smith.
    Now,I have been watching this thread on the empty hands section and it has led me to do more research on my own and I have found out several moderately interesting things. At least to me:
    1- There is no Rapid Arnis in the US and it's "chief instructor" hasn't stepped foot in the US for well over a year.
    So,false claims on a website?
    2-After seeing all these claims of work on tv show and lineage on the RA website,I looked into some of those as well,including the claims of advisors to Human Weapon(which I enjoyed immensely) and Mind,Body and Kickass Moves:)/) Being in the job field I am in,I am able to follow up on things for legitimacy,or,as you would say,"integrity" of such claims. Long story short,I can find no one who even had ANY dealings with anyone from this Rapid Arnis in this capacity,whatsoever. Just exactly why would a production company such as this,who went directly to the P.I, ring someone in the UK? And,please,do not try and insult me on my research. You have NO idea of the resources I have at my disposal.
    To be fair,the BBC work was legit,but with cold responses.
    Not to mention,for the record,the less than friendly responses I got in my calls to Cebu regarding this Rapid Arnis system and this "Tuhon".

    Now,I will say just exactly what spurred me on to this course of action on this particular thread.
    First off,I feel,personally,the original poster wasn't treated with very much respect in the first place.Some of the replies to him were less than congenial in my opinion.
    Second,when this "Damien Alexander" made his post,which was very innocent and more polite that some of the others;this so called "Tuhon" ripped straight into him for no reason what so ever. I would definitey say this was an action of no more than cyber-bullying.
    I could care less what personal problems you have,this is NOT the place for such reaction. PERIOD.
    Which leads to the my 2nd poster "janno",which obviously a student of Rapid Arnis and this "Tuhon".
    Not only did he air PERSONAL issues with this man,which again,was not needed,he attacked him with,what would be considerd in a court of law,libel and slanderours remarks,not to mention accusations of illegal activities. I'm not sure how it would work in the UK,but here in the US,you could be sued and the moderaterators of this site could get in trouble as well for such things. Although that was editied,it was still read by many.
    If this is the kind of people Rapid Arnis produces,I would be ashamed,at best,and there is no way I could show my face with this type of public display.In my day,such students would be dismissed immediately,but I guess "Tuhon" does things differently.
    The poster "Mark Southwold",may have gone over the top in some peoples eyes,but he stated NO illegal activity at all
    Personally, I do agree with his post being edited,but I would have liked to have a response to his claims from those accussed.

    Being a gvernment employee,I am going to check a little more into this Damien Alexander as well.
    I have found,so far,that he does have a bit of a military background and he has done many years of martial arts training and security work,as his website claims.

    I am going to sum this up now,because this has become tiresome at best,I have been a martial artist for most of my life and I have never seen audacious claims of "integrity" and "brotherhood" and yet,I think the british term is "throwing the toys out of the pram".
    I will say that some of the other posts were correct; this has left a very bad impression on the FMA and,since I was originally searching for a weapon bladed system for a work contract here in the US,I do believe I will take my search elsewhere.
    In retrospect, I don't think I will bother with this "Rapid Arnis" anymore."
     
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