Empty Force

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by nzric, Feb 2, 2004.

?

Do you believe advanced IMA'ists are able to use Empty Force?

  1. Yes, I believe empty force is real and effective in combat

    19 vote(s)
    31.7%
  2. No, I believe the concept of empty force is incorrect

    21 vote(s)
    35.0%
  3. I'm not sure if empty force exists or not.

    12 vote(s)
    20.0%
  4. I couldn't care less about the topic of empty force.

    8 vote(s)
    13.3%
  1. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    My understanding of WU WEI

    Original Indian Buddhism's concept of Wu Wei, Stillness and non violence ( ie. not Zen Buddhism ) advocates a believer standing still , doing nothing so his attacker has an easier time cutting off his head.

    Zen Buddhism has evolved to allow for violence in the context of self defence, but preferably one that doesnt avoid killing the attacker.

    Taoism has no such restrictions and while mercy still has its place, a Taoist will kill his attacker if he feels it is for the greater good.

    Taoism's Wu Wei concept is about not engaging in any contrived, unspontaneous , unnatural action that requires struggle. When a Taoist acts, he tries to do so in line with the Tao or the natural way requiring least resistance. That's not the same as No Action which many people seem to erroneously think is what Wu Wei is all about.
     
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Maybe if you'd actually made your point better, or even understood how exactly the animals you refer to do the 'mystical' things that they do. Try studying a little science sometime, or maybe actually testing things rather than just taking them for granted.

    Its interesting how your defense is simply to call the two people who replied to you ignorant rather than actually try to defend your point. I mean, some people would have tried to defend their point. Others would have clarified it. But nope, you're quite happy just to call anyone who disagrees with you ignorant, and claim that proves your point. Well done.
     
  3. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That's a good point rabbit. I personaly didn't see the connection between ki and monkeys jumping through trees. And I study Ki Aikido.

    From my point of view people who are intolerant of people who can't understand, don't understand, don't want to understand or who simpley don't beleive what ki is are just as arogant or ignorant as anybody else. Everybody has the right to an opinion. But nobody has the right to force an opinon on anybody.
     
  4. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    Here's a link to empty force:

    http://www.buqi.net/gb/1/empty_force.html


    My teacher also assured me of the validity of using chi to project external force (telekinesia). A Canadian guy I know (a bright electrical engineer), who has been practicing qigong for 3 years said the following in a lab experiment he conducted himself:

    "[/B]I set up an airtight container, and inside, I suspended a plastic drinking straw. So, the drinking straw was almost like the hand of a clock, free to rotate in the container. First, I tried 'normal' methods to make the straw move, like using magnets and blowing or banging the container. This caused the straw to shake or vibrate due to mechanical force, but the straw could never rotate like the hands of a clock. So, the goal was to make the straw rotate or spin in the container, like Swami Rama made the needles spin (but Swami Rama made metal needles spin, and plastic is much harder to move).

    I had no idea what to do. I just sat in front of the container each day for 30 minutes and 'willed' for the straw to move. 70 days passed with nothing. Then, one day, my mind went blank, and suddenly the straw rotated VIOLENTLY and it hit the side of the container after about 180 degrees and jammed in that position. This was because the straw had not been centered in the container. I was in shock! I showed my mom the container, and how the straw had moved and jammed.

    The next day I tried again, and again the straw moved! However, after that I couldn't make the straw move again despite 100 or more tries. Eventually I tried a metal needle and managed once to make it move, but it was very erratic, obviously I did not have the concentration and relied on 'luck' to hit the correct state of mind. Anyway, it was enough to convince me that something was going on".


    Another testimony is the one that happened to a friend of mine (taiji chuan and qi gong adept) who is sometimes capable of stopping traffic lights when he walks past them: qi interacting with the electrical field generated by the light. The thing is that he doesn't stop them on purpose. It just happens.


    Humans yet have to unveil the unlimited power of the brain (and mind as its tool) in relation to chi (a biological version of the electromagnetic force that permeates the entire universe).

    So to speak, what the public perceived in Star-Wars (the jedi concept) doesn't seem unlikely at all. Qigong is simply the tool to empower humans in that way.

    I like the embracing the tree position for long periods of time as a tool to achieve that.

    Gerard.
     
  5. Mad Yakker

    Mad Yakker Valued Member

    "E road rules" >> Yup!! :D
     
  6. Din

    Din 3rd dan

    there are many things we have yet to figure out about the capabilities of the human body
     
  7. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Maybe people would take concepts like Ki more seriousley if people would stop telling tales of their friend who moved this with his mind and it was in a sealed container and he's realy smart and tried and tried and couldn't do it then did it one day and showed sombody else but not me and he can't prove it because he can't do it anymore.

    If your 'friend' can't move the straw now, I doubt he ever could. Ki is not like 'The Force' from the Star Wars movies. To date all documented accounts of telekinesis have been debunked.

    Electromagnetic fields can make things move. They can even make things float. It's a scientific fact. That's how magleve trains work. But no human has the capacity to generate anywhere near enough power to do anything like that. Not even to move a straw.

    I'm sorry but Ki simply doesn't work that way. As far as I know Ki can only influence things that have a mind of some sort.
     
  8. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    I'm surprised Rich Mooney hasn't put in an appearance on this thread. He did over at the old KFO.
     
  9. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Gerard,

    Gerard,
    Yes I have read the articles of Dr. Shen at Buqi earlier
    I think there might be 3 things going on here that "appear to contradict each other.
    Let me explain why there's no contradiction.

    Empty Force appears be be manifested in at least 3 ways ( maybe more):
    1. Empty Force manifested when Qi is used to move an object with or without contact
    2. Empty Force manifested when Qi is used to disrupt the other person's Qi system , thereby causing him to move on his own, with or without contact
    3. Empty Force manifested when I draw from Cosmic Qi or my opponent's Qi to move him with or without contact.
    In which case I am only acting as a power switch and a conductor of Energy.

    #1 is limited in use because we each have limited amounts of Qi and they tend to be in small quantities.
    # 2 doesnt require much energy, someone described it using the TV remote Control analogy, where a small 3 volt battery powered device is used to control a large 240volt device without contact.
    #3 is the most powerful method, it's like I have control of the switch at the power station.
    Cosmic Qi is infinite.

    I think the Qi that AikiWolfie speaks of is #1, I have seen manifestations of #2 and #3 as well .

    About THE FORCE in Star Wars, I think in more ways than one, THE FORCE seems to closely represent Empty Force the way I know it...the way it is used, explained and generally the nature of its behaviour.
    http://www.exn.ca/starwars/taoism.cfm

    I have been told that George Lucas got someone to research all the ancients religions, metaphysics, ancient Warrior traditions before he came up with the Star Wars story. It is possible he has incorporated many Taoist ideas . The Guru- disciple relationship between Yoda and . Luke Skywalker and Obi Wan could have been plucked out of any ancient Chinese Martial Arts novel.
    If anyone is interested , can try reading these novels> The Wanderin Daoist, The Scholar Warrior by Dao Ming Der
    :)
     
  10. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I'm sorry soggycat but the tv remote analogy doesn't hold when you're talking about inanimate objects.

    A TV remote doesn't power the TV. The mains power supply does. All the remote does is provide instruction.

    An inert inanimate object such as a straw has no power supply of it's own. It is not plugged into the mains power supply. If a TV is not plugged in, nothing happens when you use the remote. The same is true for the straw.

    All Ki comes from the univers and is as finite as the universe (our universe is not infinate). However the ability of the human mind is also very limited in it's ability to deal with large amounts of Ki.

    Look at it this way. If Ki is energy then the human mind is the fuse. Pass too much energy through the fuse and it breaks.

    As a Ki Aikido practitioner I know people who have studied, practiced and diciplined their minds for decades who cannot channel enough Ki to move even a straw. Nobody with an undiciplined mind is going to acheive such a feat by pure luck. It simply doesn't happen. Sorry.
     
  11. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    I'm sorry soggycat but the tv remote analogy doesn't hold when you're talking about inanimate objects.
    Agree. That’s why Empty Force has no effect on objects with no Qi ie. Non-living things.
    The TV remote analogy works. The remote is powered by a 3 volt battery. It controls a 240volt/ 100Watts TV. It changes channels, even shuts it down to standbymode by turning off the Silicon CMOS FET switch.
    The “instruction” is transmitted/ projected via low powered ( milliwatts) InfraRed rays.
    In other words , a low energy system controls a high energy system



    I do not know how to explain the straw experiement.
    My teacher says Empty Force does not affect non-living things.
    We cant stop bullets, but we can try to move the hand that holds the gun.
    We have no disagreement her AikiWolfie.
     
  12. gerard

    gerard Valued Member

    if qi does not work with inanimate objects how do you explain what my friend does sometimes accidentally with traffic lights??
     
  13. Adc

    Adc Valued Member

    The research that GL did for his Star Wars production would hardly constitute true formal study.More a reflection of superficial ideas derived from a variety of Eastern Philosophies.
    I really recommend 2 books on Daoism
    The Daoist Body Kristofer Schipper
    The Shambhala Guide to Daoism Eva Wong
     
  14. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    IMHO, Empty Force / Chi are is only one of the many special humans abilities. The other abilities lie in the realm of ESP / Sixth Sense / Parapsychology . . . like Telekinesis and Clairvoyance .
    Your friend's abilities with the straw and traffic lights maybe attributed to these other Psychic abilities.
     
  15. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Gerard ask your friend if this traffic light thing always happens at the same time of day. Traffic lights are controlled by a sofisticated timer system. Maybe just maybe he's passing as the lights are about to change anyway?

    The fact it only happens 'sometimes' would sudjest this is what is happening.

    Soggycat I totaly agree that the tv analogy works if both the tv and remote are 'alive'. But you did implie Ki could be used on an object. I took the word object to mean inanimate or dead.

    "1. Empty Force manifested when Qi is used to move an object with or without contact".
     
  16. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    Sorry, I meant to say living objects.
    As far as what I have been told and what I have seen with my own eyes, not from a video, Empty Force has an effect on living things.

    But I have also heard of how some OTHER Taoist related training that can also move non- living things as well. I dont have a name for it. The closest I can say is The Tao.
    eg. When one has achieved the Tao, or is one with the Tao, or has the Tao or is in Harmony with the Tao, at a time when one needs it most, the Tao will come and save you. Unusual things will happen. Something aimed at you will miss. You are in a horrific car accident and you will be unhurt.
     
  17. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    There may verywell be other things out there similar to Ki that are far more powerfull. Without getting into the realms of the paranormal there are so many unexplained phenomena that scientists have documented.

    Sceince still doesn't know exactly how lightning works. Something that has been well documented and observed. With every experiment they do, something new is disscovered and they are a long way off explaining it all.

    However I've personaly never seen anybody project enough power to move a dead object without physical contact. I doubt very much it's something somebody could do by accident. If people could influence the world that way we would be living in chaos.

    I've always been taught that Ki can't be used this way.
     
  18. Th3_GOD

    Th3_GOD New Member

    Didnt read all posts....

    But as far as the money rewards go, what if the people who have learned the "incredible feats" have learned to seperate materilism from their mind. I mean Qi and all that can get into deep phsyco logical stuff, so maybe they don't really care about money rewards. Sometimes i myself wonder well i wonder how fun it would be to be on an island surviving on my own with maybe a few other people. While on the other side of the spectrum if i had millions of servants and a corporate company, after a good amount of years happiness would be depleted from many things. A good example is in curiously enough an ICP song.

    He starts out poor, and has many goals and dreams. Then he finds a lamp, a geneie appears and grants all his wishes. Soon he becomes a king and has every "MATERILISITC" thing he could ever want. But then he has no happiness in anything, and no goals are left to acheive. He looks back and remembers how good life really was with goals to make, dreams, and problems. In essential this is what life is. Without the problems, and dreams, life is essentially nothing.

    Mr. John Doe offers a million dollars to anyone who can do.... Maybe the people who know theses abilitys kind of obtained the above theories and knowledge through their journey to gain the abilities. Just something to think about....
     
  19. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "There may verywell be other things out there similar to Ki that are far more powerfull. Without getting into the realms of the paranormal there are so many unexplained phenomena that scientists have documented."

    That may be true, but it is science, or enquiring minds, that eventually explain phenomena. Otherwise we would all still think the sun gets eaten by a dragon every night and that the world is flat.
     
  20. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    Empty force...thirsty anyone? :D
     

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