I lost a post on this thread in another MAP crash! Essentially it was to try and give you a better idea of my position (that I had deliberately put myself in). The left arm holding me is collapsed into a barbell curl with the forearm slamming up aloong my sternum while the hand grips my trachea so tightly that I am choking and my chin is being forced upwards (and I am forced onto tip-toe). The right arm is bent and holding the knife about 1cm from my carotid (in the gap created by the force of the neck hold. The attavker's body is about 15cm from mine. Due to the protective swat simulation helemt I'm wearing I can't see either the knife or the hand that is holding my throat - so I'm working blind. Everything you've both said is good advice - but I'd deliberately put myself in a postion where they would be difficult/impossible to pull off. What I did was punch directly to the face (as both my arms are up in a submissive and scared posture close to my face) with my right hand as my left hand thrusts onto the wrist of the knife holding hand. The attacker flinched momentarily before the punch struck and slightly turned his head so that the punch caught his left temp adn teh punch made him stagger backwards. My left hand remians in contact with his right knife wielding wrist and I keep my momentum forward, slaming my right forearm into his sternum and across his calvicle (as in one of my normal drills) while pushing my left down and forward to try and get the knife into a control position just behind his back with his arm striaght (a biomechanical control - not a lock - it is very difficult due ot leverls to move an arm that is being held here). Now I want the guy facing me but the original punch made him turn away which means My left arm is more extended than his knife weilding right in my attempt at control - not what I want at all - so I bring my right elbow down behind his right shoulder on the reverse follow through to its forearm slam 9 this orientates his body towards me in a bent over position and allows me to get the knife where I want it. I then knee him in the abdomen/face/neck 3 times (controling with my right forearm on the back of his neck while my left arm holds his right and the knife in place behind his back). I then slam the backside of his right (GB20) with a right palm to turn his body away from me and use that gap to bring the knife to my right hand side (away from my body at all times) with my let. I then use a right vertical koto gaeshi (not a diagonal one) to remove the knife from his hand into my right hand grip. I am now in a sound tactical postion to either walk away or continue my attack either armed or unarmed. The majority of the drill here is used elsewhere in my syllabus as our core close range work. This takes about 2 seconds (the knee strikes slow it down but I made the mistake of relaxing my stomach (or rather I didn't tense in time) for one of these while wearing heavy ribbed armour and it hurts) and at no time (even alive) does the knife guy have a chance to get back into the fight after the initial punch ot the face (and I'm talking about someone here who knows what I'm doing, has a brief to counter it and is wearing body armour). If the first punch to the face is weak - you get stabbed (I know it happened while I was being gentle). There are actually a lot of biomechanical principles involved in that sequence despite how messy it looks when you see it. :Angel:
jwtitchen, I think it is excellent training and work you are involved in :love: I will be honest, however, that it appears to me that it violates two principles. 1) The first is that you are not doing anything before getting in the position to help you out. The first principle of course is something like "don't get hit" but I understand that isn't always possible AND I understand you are letting yourself get into a really bad position intentionally for training purposes. However, I disagree that you don't at least start to "turtle" your shoulders and head to give you a little bit of an advantage on first contact to the throat. People ask all the time how to escape out of bad situations. I tell them first that it is very difficult, if it was easy it would not be called an escape. Although it is good to work the escapes, IMHO, it is much better to have the goal to train on how not to get in such a bad position, to counter or evade it early enough. 2) The other principle has to do with aligning the body so that you are in position that is relatively safe for the moment for you to attack/counter/escape, etc. A common violation of this principle, IMHO, is that they try to do too much at one time. When you have mobility, movements might be measured in feet, however, when pinned against a wall, on the ground, or otherwise immoblized in some manner, the movements are measured in inches. For instance, when shoulders are pinned, the hips can still be moved, but all positioning changes in inches. For every inch you move, you must do so in a way that the opponent cannot gain that inch back, until you position enough that you can make a bigger move, sweep or attack upon them. jwtitchen, I am in no way criticizing your training, I quite admire it and respect it. I am only saying that it appears to me to be in violation of two very important principles. I know speaking only for myself, as a smaller Bruce Lee sized guy, when a 300 lbs opponent picks me off the ground, I am much better off if I apply the first two principles above before I move on to something further. Just my opinion.
Hi Rebel, I usually turtle the head and neck on contact with a wall and I teach this (initially for the simple reason that it prevents your head from hitting the wall if you are unlucky enough to be pushed by surprise into one). Unfortunately turtling doesn't always work and as it didn't in this instance, I worked from the poorer position. Although I didn't mention this I did align my hips slightly in the direction of my initial punch to give me more reach with that arm so that I had an automatic lead with the desired leg for the follow through. Essentially though I am giving myself a worse case scenario to try and see if there is a point/position where resistance is not feasible. Part of this is working from the basis that no matter how good you can be it is always possible to get caught off guard and be ambushed. Thanks for the kind words. If I can video it tomorrow then I will.
All good stuff. After such a long time training a triangular stance comes natural to me even when(particularly when) I am surprised. IF I ever found myself in the position described I would do as you said regarding the knife hand.(staightening out the arm to his rear)a "hook and press" block/sweep my "punch" would be more of a hammer strike to the jaw driving it to my left to create anavenue of escape/entry to the rear. As in most ara (severe) techniques my intention is to get behind him. Once behind a kick to the back of the knee and a twist on the neck. Since I have a hatred of knifes I would tend to be "robust" in my application. regards koyo :Angel:
Sorry guys. I have been out of the discussion for awhile. It has been a busy week here with Christmad coming. I have spent today watching the Ashes cricket in my home town. Will catch up and comment next week. Have been interested to read the various views on technique but need to ask, how do your various posts relate to the original post of effective technique? They all seem to variations of the theme and some I would have different views of from a Tsutsumi jujutsu perspective but effective all the same. Please consider this. From a purely physics point of view a strike to the groin is not unbalancing. Effective yes but not unnalancing
Hi Greg Delighted to see you posting and must agree that WE have strayed from the original purpose of the thread. As for strike to the groin not unbalancing I would agree and add that any strike or technique that "bunches up" the attacker makes him most difficult to throw or pin. regards koyo I must shoulder much of the blame for the direction the thread has taken. My reason for posting initially was because of the negative manner aikido is spoken of therefor I stressed (maybe too much) the martial aspect.I truly believe in the altruistic nature of the art and to train ONLY in martial effectiveness loses some of your humanity. My apologies. (I should know about "balance" by now!!!!!
I'd be interested to know what you mean by unbalancing if a strike to the groin is not considered unbalancing. The reason I would consider it to be unbalancing as it causes the recipient to bend over and thus his posture is distorted and (in my opinion) weaker. He may still be stable on his feet (though that can vary) but now his centre of gravity has moved and he is more vulnerable to further strikes or pushes.
Hi JT My take on this is that if the intention is to throw or pin cleanly having the attacker crouched down with his hands around his genitals is not the ideal position.Which brings me back to a major principle. Unbalance the attacker backwards to the side. Also I think we are speaking of CONTROL here. Both of ourself and the attacker so that a "confrontation" need not escalate into a life or death scenario. regards koyo
I agree that it is more difficult to throw a bent over person, however I find it easier to do techniques such as koto gaeshi (note that the version I use puts te person straight down as opposed to backwards and to the side), straight arm bar etc from this position and it is easier for me to sweep them or push them to the ground (either sideways or forwards) - I also find that it makes their techniques less effective while I am still in a good position to hit them. From my perspective it forms a very good control position. I would be the first to admit that it was the last position I wanted the other guy to go in if I was trying to do Aiki, but from a ballistic point of view I am quite happy. I would also add that usually I've got at leasst one of the other guys arms if I kick to the groin so I've still got an arm to manipulate. For me therefore their posture is taken, they are more vumnerable to my subsequent counter attacks and in a poorer position to defend themselves. This is why I would consider it as unbalancing (especially if they just keel over). I do think it all comes down to what you core repertoire is and whether this position is beneficial for you.
For your consideration. My attitude to and reason for training in martial arts is to confront a paradox. True martial arts training should enable us to create the circumstance wherein there is no need for martial techniques. I am with rebel in the thought that the main thrust of our training should be in gaining the awareness to avoid or at least sense the possibility of conflict. If by our action or inaction we have caused conflict then we must deal with it but this shows little growth as a martial artist. As I have posted before. Strong enough that we need not fear attack compassionate enough that no other (reasonable person) may fear us. respectfully koyo
A worthy aim and one that I share, yet as part of training we need to develop effective technique for when we have not managed to steer clear of a situation or defused it in a non violent manner. I was merely making the point before that I would consider a person hunched over 'unbalanced' and that for me that particular posture is useful for the techniques I wish to employ.
I guess I'm in a minority when I say that I did not realize the posts had gone off-topic. I see good technique as that which is driven from principles, executed fluidly (leaving no opportunity for counter), and applied intuitively (based off awareness and seated instinct). I would say that good technique starts at first sense of threat, everything else follows. I thought this related to the first post as an addition to the list by saying that awareness and action are part of good technique. To be aware but also know instinctively when to act. Sometimes waiting too long or not waiting long enough (timing) will cause even the most sound technique to fail horribly. I felt that the posts here were good and informative, but I can see now that there was some topic shift from the original post. Sorry about that. On the good side, just like technique, this thread has adapted to go with the flow Well, I guess first I will clarify what strike to groin is for us. It is not a strike at the testicles, we either target (1) the small intestine or (2) the conception vessel (e.g. between the testicles and the tail bone right between the legs). (1) The strike or kick to the small intestines is not just a hit but it also is a push that often causes the opponent to bend forward at the waist. This is not a light tap, this is a poke or kick with the ball of the foot with enough force to drive the hips backwards while bending the majority of body weight head first forward. If successfully done in this manner, it is unbalancing. If the opponent bends foward enough, it is easier to grab the back of their head/neck and pile drive or face plant them into the ground. If they break back at the hips, only slightly leaning forward, that is a position where an elbow/forearm strike to the hip track can finish the job of dropping them with a single leg takedown. (2) The strike with the single knuckle or with the ball of the foot to the conception vessel is more in the line of destruction than unbalancing. It can cause unbalancing by causing them to stand more upright while their legs become weaker. This can set them up for attacks to their legs or a reaping sweep. In any case, just in training taking that hit even lightly seems to do the job. ------ For jwtitchen ---------- Just quickly, tried to simulate this myself. I really like what you came up with. That bent arm of the attacker does make many text book techniques useless but it does leave them open to a strike to the head. Instead of a punch to the face, I found two variations that worked well if I was close enough to use them. 1. open handed strike to the ear with a cupped hand. If done right, this stuns the attacker immediately. (I've found this to be is an amazingly effective technique if done right, however, getting the right cupped hand shape can be very difficult if you are wearing gloves or in a rush.) 2. Or chop with the knife-hand edge of the hand (below the pinky on the meaty edge), palm facing upwards. Striking between the floating ribs and hip, this should be using the power of your hips into the strike and with the rotation the force should go into the opponent and go slightly upward (lifting them) in vector. I found this collapsed the opponent, making their choking arm go almost dead for a moment leaving a good path to their backside by pushing their elbow aside. Just some thoughts.
Hi Rebel, good points. Okay - I filmed the sequence a few times today. There were a few problems (such as the lack of a camera man) - mainly that I erred on the side of caution with my initial head strike to my attacker (its not agood idea to knock out your training partner) which made the subsequent follow throughs harder. I also drop the knife on one occasion. I'd like to stress that I have complete tunnel vision in the helmet I'm wearing for this. I can't see above or below me and I can't see the knife when I'm being threatened. The drill is alive once we start so anything can happen and the knife man can stab me as much as he likes or hit me in any other way if he has the opportunity. The 3 videos can be found, warts and all, at Http://www.practicalkarate.co.uk Go to the movies section. Expect the files to take 3 - 4 minutes to upload.
I think that the drift from the intial posts is that we are dealing more with ara waza which are lethal and damaging techniques which must only be used as a last resort and are not the be all and end all of martial arts. Having spent many years in professions that have left me in harms way more often than most I am truly aware of the need for ara waza. However even real fights are not always between RIGHT and WRONG , more often they are a moral choice between two wrongs.Therefor I rarely used ara waza. Hence my feeling that training should emphasise those moments before conflict. Many principles are in play such as awareness, confidence , experience control of environment,timing , distancing and decisiveness. I know from experience the "mastery" of these means that we shall rarely be in a life or death situation and many situations are resolved on a physical level without escalating into ara waza. THis is not a critisism of effective technique.Be so aware and strong technicaly that it is most difficult to be "surprised". I have been (once or twice) but that has only lasted an instant and it was my training in damashi (spirit) that saved me far more than the technique. regards koyo
Nice videos. Good work. The checking of the knife hand was done very well, IMHO. I am curious if you tried the chop under the floating ribs instead of the punch to the head, and if so how it worked with the high gear on. Also, if you tried the scenerio with knife to the heart instead of the throat. Knife tip to heart is used by thugs/murderers in some places as it hides the knife from view of any witnesses plus when thrust into the heart/chest cavity, it is hard for the victim to scream after that.
Difficult to write this post. I once had to cover the body of a dead junkie to hide it from local children. THEN I had to fight off three of his "friends" who wanted to search the body for drugs.The children wrer yelling at ME to stop.So my perspective on real fighting is rather different from others. I also saw one fellow have a dart stuck straight into his chest and believe me Rebel he DID scream. I feel uncomfortable posting like this (BAD memories) I am sure you will forgive me if I move on. regards koyo
I didn't try the chop to the ribs in this particular instance because the way I'm shoved against the wall (and the position of the attacker's forearm) meant that the ribs are both difficult to get to with any sort of power and are clenched as a result of holding me. As my attacker was wearing only the top half of the suit (which in the chest guard has a rib layer that wraps round and sits beneath the chest plate) he would have felt it if I went low enough. If he had been wearing the shorts (which also have rib pieces in them that sit beneath the chest piece (armadillo) he probably wouldn't have felt a thing. I think there is a higher chance of success with the head hit plus it keeps your hand near the knife at the start - its not the sort of situation where I'd risk a guy with tough ribs. In one instance I was attacked before I got into position for the drill and the video (not on the web) shows my head whipping back with the force of the grab to the throat (I was wearing the high gear protector for all but the third video). We have tried the scenario with the knife at the heart and the abdomen. In that one we actually found it considerably easier to take the knife with the same movement as the seizing hand has more momentum as it takes control. I can clearly see mistakes I've made and how I've recovered from them in these videos (I do the techniques better when I can see for a start - I think in the second video the mask gets pushed up slightly and I'm blind from the throat grab onwards). I will say that I personally find videoing myself and then disecting the results an excellent learning tool. Back to what makes a technique effective then....
JW My point on strikes to the groin not being unbalancing should perhaps be qualified as hard strikes. I also made the point about the physics of unbalancing. I always start seminars with the question "What is balance?" How can you know unbalancing with out knowing what you are trying to upset? The physics of balance is that the centre of gravity must be within the support structure of a body. For humans this means that the point inside your body around your naval area must be with in the area bounded by outside of your feet and the lines between the toes and heels. When a person is struck hard in the groin they do indeed bend forward but in the process they also drop lower by bending their knees and having their backside move backwards. The centre of gravity remains above their feet. The lower they go the more stable they become and eventually fall on their side and so are even more stable. Hence more point that a strike to the groin is not unbalancing and makes all but striking techniques virtually impossible. However, a light strike is effective in distracting the person so another technique can be applied that allows some form of unbalancing to be done. We always teach that striking unbalancing has to be used correctly for the type of technique that you want to do. For instance for a shoulder throw we always stike high in the chest because we don't want the person to bend over making it hard to get in for the throw.
I wonder if because I'm shorter than most of the others I partner with if that is a reason why the chop under the floating ribs works well for me when my other hand is guarding high. FYI, if their arm is in the way, I usually just strike right through it (but this is only if I can generate a power hit with good technique to do so). I haven't tried the chop like that against an armored person however. The protective padding we wear is for safety, we aren't assuming we will get the pressure points through armor. That is why there has to be a good amount of force behind the hits through the target. We were going to try training with heavy winter coats on, but we got side tracked and didn't get around to it. I think the bulkiness of the coats would have really negated much of the striking to the body. That's why the other variation was a cupped open-handed strike to the ear. Most of the striking points were probably developed in tropical regions, where there wasn't a lot of clothing to get in the way. In colder regions, there is more of grappling type martial arts developed I believe. In relation to the development of effective technique, the type of clothing and environment which the techniques are trained makes a difference. Of course we've heard of no Gi verse Gi training, we do both. But the techniques themselves vary based on no Gi or Gi or padded armor or rigid armor, etc. On one hand, we only should attempt to do what we feel will work or give us advantage and will allow us to keep the advantage. That I already addressed in the choice of technique being part of practical application. On the other hand, however, what if the person grabs the clothes instead of my neck, etc. There are variations of every technique that must adapt intuitively as the context changes. I know one adaption is the control of distance, but what of other adaptions. For instance, what if instead of holding the knife one way, the knife is held differently to the throat? Since you cannot see the knife well, how would the changing of the grip impact the success of the technique? Sorry for the long post.
