Early Origins of TKD

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Scaramouch, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    TKD Books, magazine articles and web sites often have a section on TKD history and development. Commonly, reference is made to the mythical fighting force called “The Hwarang”, however, the Hwarang appear to have no direct connection with Tae Kwon Do or with the other martial arts of modern Korea. I was surprised to find this out because emphasis is placed upon modern Korean martial arts being traced back to the Hwarang, not only TKD but also CKD (Choi Kwang Do).

    Do you think this is just commercial “hype” to make us westerners think we are learning a MA steeped in mythical origins?

    I picked up this info from an interesting and well researched article on the web:

    http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm

    Furthermore this article states:

    “Tae Kwon Do is predominantly Okinawan /Japanese Karate with minor contributions from Chinese Chuan Fa. The original kwans taught Okinawan/Japanese kata, wore gis; and the art taught was Karate with a Korean flavour.”

    “The sport aspect has received increasing emphasis to the point where training is now generally dominated by preparation for tournament competition sparring. Tae Kwon Do has become an Olympic sport, and Tae Kwon Do is no longer officially considered a martial art in Korea, but rather a martial sport.“

    Do you think these quotes are a fair summary? Would be interested to get some thoughts from those in-the-know………..

    PS I don’t need a history lesson on TKD origins through 1940-60’s though, thanks.
     
  2. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    Martial arts in Korea does have a long history, most of which was probably lost during repressive occupations by the Chinese and and the Japanese.
    The history of Tae Kwon Do is open to alot of debate depending on which history account out there you choose to believe, but it does seem that everyone agrees that after the 1940's is the era of "modern" TKD.

    Here are the different TKD history accounts:

    History of TKD according to WTF

    History of TKD according to ITF

    Here is what seems to be a non partisan account "People and Events of T'aekwondo's Formative Years" by Dakin Bur****

    and even a Cartoon !!
    Tae Kwon Do History Cartoon


    True, the main thrust of the WTF is the 'sportification' of TKD.
    Is this a bad thing? .... yes & no
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2003
  3. craigwarren

    craigwarren Valued Member

    That doesnt sound right. Im not 100% sure, but i was under the impression The Hwarang where a real group of korean fighters from the early silla dynasty. Also their art (supposing they are actually real) was credited for being the beginning of other korean martial arts which later helped in the shaping of TKD, which did take parts from shotokan karate, but was still based on other arts aswell.
     
  4. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Thanx for the reply and the web links KickChick

    The WTF seems to quote the mystical (Hwarang) origins of TKD whilst the ITF acknowledges the influence of Japanese Karate - an interesting difference. The cartoon is a bit of nonsense, entertaining though.

    With respect to sport vs MA, I do not have particularly strong views. I have competed in my 20's in sport karate but I would not compete now - too slow and old - each to their own.
     
  5. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    The Hwa Rang Do

    Yes I agree craig these warriors were not "mystical".... from reading an account above ...

    "During the reign of Chin Heung, twenty-fourth king of Silla, the young aristocrats and warrior class formed an elite officer corps called Hwa Rang Do-. This warrior corps, in addition to the ordinary training in spear, bow, sword and hook, also trained themselves by practicing mental and physical discipline, in various forms of hand and foot fighting (Soo Bak and Tae Kyon). To harden their bodies, they climbed rugged mountains, swam the turbulent rivers in the coldest months, and drove themselves unmercifully to prepare for the task of defending their homeland.

    During the period of Hwa Rang-Do, the original primitive art of foot fighting called Soo Bak was popular among the common people. The warriors of Hwa Rang-Do added a new dimension to this national art of foot fighting by gearing it to a combative art and infusing the principles of the Hwa Rang-Do. The new mental concept, as well as physical, elevated foot fighting to an art and became Soo Bak-Gi. "
     
  6. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    I do not dispute the existence of The Hwarang but it seems there is some dibate over whether or if they practised any form of unarmed combat. Most accounts stress their concentration on weapons training and philosophy. The Tenets of TKD and CKD are suggested to hark back to part of the Hwarang philosophy but it this as far as the connection goes?

    There does appear that there are references to very early forms of unarmed Korean combat (e.g. Soo Bak) but the question is whether TKD uses any of these techniques or whether it draws mainly on Japanese Karate and Chinese Chuan Fa - I guess its a tough question to answer?
     
  7. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Furthermore, on the subject of the Hwarang practising unarmed combat, I have come across another site:

    http://www.hwarang.org/Ancienthistory.html

    Quote:

    "Hwarang-do, or Way of the Flowering Knights, is a purely Korean moral and philosophical code that includes a series of physical techniques claimed by its founder to have been practiced by the Hwarang warriors of the Silla Dynasty. This claim is also made by many Tae Kwon Do stylists, who argue that the precursor to their art, called Tae Kyon or Subak, meaning "unarmed combat," was originally the preserve of the Hwarang warriors.

    Unfortunately, there are no extant historical documents nor archeological records to support these claims. Indeed, historical records indicate that the Hwarang warriors, while remarkably adept archers and accomplished swordsmen, practiced only rudimentary unarmed combat skills, and left no existing records of a fencing school, or a complete unarmed combat system. However, the lack of historical documentation should in no way detract from the practice of modern Hwarang-do, a legitimate and respectable martial art for any serious Korean combat stylist. Indeed, all Korean fighting arts owe a debt to the Hwarang's illustrious traditions."

    So, whats the verdict?
     
  8. craigwarren

    craigwarren Valued Member

    Very few people would argue that tae kwon do was an "origional art". There are many arts involved. This article talks about General Choi's unification of many of these arts into the one now called Tae Kwon Do.

    http://www.taekwondo-web.com/eng/founder/founder.htm

    The article mentions the arts that General Choi studies and also mentions the unification of many other arts into TKD.
    <B> On the 11th of April 1955, the board summoned by Gen. Choi, decided on the name of Taekwon-Do which had been submitted by him. This single unified name of Taekwon-Do replaced the different and confusing terms; Dang Soo, Gong Soo, Taek Kyon, Kwon Bup, etc. </B>

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    My little book states TKD roots of 2,000 years with the separate hand system and foot system being joined in 1954 at a conference organised by the heads. They unanimously agreed to elect one of their own as the new master of hand & foot fighting.

    Rgds,
    David
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Scaramouch:
    Some sources say basically that there is evidence of fighting stances and techniques such as knife hand and fist in ancient tomb paintings of the Kogoryo dynasty and that the techniques may be traced to some time B.C. Supposedly the Kogoryo dynasty helped out the Silla dynasty and through cultural diffusion, these fighting arts spread to the Silla's Hwarang Warriors. The Hwarang warriors travelled wround the couintry and spread the arts.

    These arts later would be changed and/or passed down as Soo Bahk and Tae Kyeon. Later the modern art of Taekwondo would be put together from the remnants of these and from Japanese Karate.

    Keep in mind that there were also (probable) Chinese arts being retained in the temples... these later would be combined with Tae Kyeon kicks and Japanese Aikijujisu to create Hapkido.

    Some scholars, when they talk about Korea being the cultural bridge from China to Japan discuss the transfer of Buddhism and fighting arts to Japan and some say that many of the traditional fighting arts of Japan were based on techniques brought by Korean monks to Japan.... so if one argues that Korean arts are based on Japanese ones... one could add that the JApanese arts came from Korean sources to begin with!

    I think the main point you are looking for is "How 'authentically Korean' are Korean martial arts?" To answer that question is very difficult. Korea has been invaded many times and records destroyed and new cultural elements added to 'Korea'. The Japanese occupation tried to erase Korean identity and nearly destroyed much of what remained. After the Korean War, South Korea tried to rebuild a society, economy, and culture of their own in a very short time. They did very well.

    Korea needs to preserve everything they have left of the past for a lot of it is lost. If they need to modify things from other sources, they will. But they will tell you it is Korean, not from inferiority complexs, but from a need to replace that which was nearly lost permanantly.

    In my own opinion, I think TKD is what you make of it. If you want a school that focuses on sport elements, make one. It will still be Taekwondo. If you want to focus on self defence and evolving fighting arts, you can still do it from a TKD base. I study Taekwondo and I learn the competitive side as well as the self defence side. I believe that I learn a Korean art which is uniquely different from other arts and yet still fulfills the same purpose as other arts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2003
  11. craigwarren

    craigwarren Valued Member

    Good post Thomas.

    The art is what you make of it. Does it matter where it comes from?
     
  12. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Thomas,

    I have no beef with TKD as an authentic MA or "martial sport". If you do it and enjoy it that fine with me. It looks just as effective as anything else out there.

    I do not dispute its identity nor its modern Korean origins.

    Its just I am interested as to why certain folk harp on about the mythical Hwarang Warriors when there is clearly no evidence (based on the web links I list in earlier posts) for any connection with TKD apart from perhaps the Tenets?
     
  13. Tosh

    Tosh Renegade of Funk

    Err since none of those "certain folk" are here why don't you ask them instead of asking us?

    I mean I don't know why they are saying it? Don't think I've heard anyone in my TKD circles "going on" about the Mystical Hwarang.

    So really I'm failing to see why the bad Karma directed here? :D
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I didn't mean to imply you had a "beef" with TKD, although I am not sure what you are looking for in this thread. Something I would warn you about is where you get your information sources from. Much of the stuff on the internet is dubious in origin and may be made up or modifed intentionally or unintentionally and will of course be filtered through the writers' prejudices. Most of the primary historical sources in Korea have been destroyed.

    As a long time student of Taekwondo, I have never really heard much about the Hwarang warriors and only a little bit about Hwarang-do relates a bit to TKD. Credit is given to the Hwarang warriors for their code of ethics which have been loosely made into the TKD tenets.

    In Korea, there is some mention of Hwarang warriors, but mostly from a touristy/cultural renaissance point of view... the links to Taekwondo were never harped on where I trained there either.

    Now, about the Hwarang warriors, they are held in high esteem by many Koreans and are looked at the same way we may look at Cowboys in the USA, King Arthur in England, the Samurai in Japan, and so on. Of course, they are popularized, promoted, and common in cultural propaganda and in tourism brochures as well as textbooks and things to make one feel good about their own culture.

    Anyway, good luck in finding out what you hope to find out.
     
  15. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Thomas,

    Thanks for your comments. As you ask "I am not sure what you are looking for in this thread" I'll re-phrase the question(s) and give you my views:

    Does TKD as a martial art have any legitimate link to any ancient Korean unarmed combat forms? My view is "no".

    Or is it more heavily influenced by Japanese and Chinese MAs? A product of their respective occupations of Korea. My view is "yes".

    Have those high up in the TDK organisations subsequently tried to link TKD back to ancient Korean unarmed combat forms in order to build their own identity by mentioning the Hwarang? My view is "yes".

    None of this in my eyes devalues TKD, I am just interested in understanding its true origins despite what it says in the coffee table compendium books on various martial arts and their origins.

    Despite your comments, the official site of the World Taekwondo Federation

    http://www.wtf.org/main.htm

    does in fact "harp" on about the Hwarang in the "history section" and links their supposed unarmed combat forms to TKD

    Whilst the ITF site acknowledges the strong influence of Japanese karate. Citing TKD as a mixture of martial arts that tried to take the best from the various MAs practised in Korea at the time of unification.
     
  16. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Sorry, no "bad karma" intended. I'm just interested in MA history.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    "Thanks for your comments. As you ask "I am not sure what you are looking for in this thread" I'll re-phrase the question(s) and give you my views:

    Does TKD as a martial art have any legitimate link to any ancient Korean unarmed combat forms? My view is "no"."

    *The WTF site you link to as well as quite a few books I have here mention the cave murals and ancient books which show forms of ancient martial arts in ancient Korea. Re-read the WTF site history and you'll see that they use "assume" quite a bit. There isn't a lot of history but there are some forms of martial arts in Korea such as TaeKyeon and SsiReum (I trained a bit in this one) which, as far as I can tell, are fairly uniquely Korean. ELEMENTS of these can be found in Taekwondo. Is TKD 100% from these styles? No, and no one is claiming this.

    "Or is it more heavily influenced by Japanese and Chinese MAs? A product of their respective occupations of Korea. My view is "yes"."

    * I agree with this. Korean martial arts are heavily influenced by China and Japan. Japanese martial arts are influenced by Chinese and Korean arts. I guess the real differences are how the cultural aspects are applied. In TKD, we add Korean culture and elements of TaeKyeon and Ssireum (and others)

    "Have those high up in the TDK organisations subsequently tried to link TKD back to ancient Korean unarmed combat forms in order to build their own identity by mentioning the Hwarang? My view is "yes"."

    * Of course this is true. It's part of marketing... One of the reasons why TKD has become (prbably) the most common martial art around the world is through a government sponsored promotional campaign. As I mentioned, aftre the Korean War, Koreans needed a boost in self confidence and cultural awareness to rebuild them mentally and culturally after the ravages of Japanese occupation and the Korean War.

    "None of this in my eyes devalues TKD, I am just interested in understanding its true origins despite what it says in the coffee table compendium books on various martial arts and their origins.

    Despite your comments, the official site of the World Taekwondo Federation

    http://www.wtf.org/main.htm

    does in fact "harp" on about the Hwarang in the "history section" and links their supposed unarmed combat forms to TKD"

    * "Despite my comments..."? Without trying to sound overbearing, there is a difference between what is written on a website and what official policy may be when compared to actually doing something. I have been training in Taekwondo for a long time, and trained and lived in Korea for 4 years studying it. In our textbooks and reference books, Hwarang warriors are mentioned in the introductory history. We don't spend much time in class on it. I think that is the distinction.

    * Thanks for clarifying your goals and I will do my best to help with any questions! :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2003

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