Eagle Hapkido in Toronto, Canada.

You miss the point.

With such a graphic post as mine, I expected there would be some reprisal. So I will reiterate on the main points of my argument since they seem to have been conveniently overlooked.

MJR and Paul have mentioned that this EXTRA fee for successful grading was always in place since they have been there, which was before my time. However, no one ever mentioned anything to me until the moment I made the grade. I wondered if I was not told about this, what else was I not told about?
Also, I never said I never expected to be injured. This is a martial art and it is very physically demanding. I joined eagle because it was tough and hard training, and that is what I wanted. I expected the usual cut, scrape, bruise, or bump. But I, (and I know I speak for many on this one), DID NOT expect to be deliberately injured by some punk who I thought could be trusted. I was assured they were all "good guys" and that there was a spirit of mutual respect. Without respect we cannot grow and develop. No one is a complete idiot so as to not get the sense of what is going around them or sense that something is not entirely right.

Besides, not one of you answered the question of why I was required to pay the additional $100 dollars and others were not? Why the two standards? There should be only one across the board for all, and that is the only true and fair way to run things. MJR said it was not for economic reasons, well then why charge anything at all? Whether it was $100 dollars or $1 dollar is irrelevant. I was deceived. Plain and simple. And this does not inspire feelings of unity or respect or belonging.

Paul writes that to call M. Hwang a racist is a "crock". I'm glad you personally feel that way and I am glad you found a place at eagle. But I say again as I wrote the last time, I am writing from the vast MAJORITY who I have spoken with and told me of their thoughts and experiences, which most of the time turned out to be the same. Paul says that a black belt is not the goal. But why then have a ranking system? The higher the belt, the more technique that student has learned and the higher they have advanced in their knowledge of Hapkido. Is this not the goal? To learn Hapkido! So in a sense, a higher belt is the goal. Why would anyone join a gym with a personal trainer, for example, and go in only to stand against the wall?
Paul also writes that my "expectations of M. Hwang were childish." I exected to be taught Hapkido as per our agreement. What is childish about that? Yes there were days when I trained harder than others, but such is life for all of us. We all have our good days and our bad. We all do not hold the same job. Some have a nicer, more relaxed office job and others a more physically demanding job. If you require a lot of physical energy at your job, how can you be expected to train really hard each and every time you come into the club? A good teacher would take that into consideration; take into account that people outside of the school have a life of their own and other obligations to attend to. I wanted to seriously learn Hapkido there and that is all.
I must thank JRT for making my point for me very well. He said, "If you want religion, go to church." Exactly. I wanted Hapkido, but I got religion (sort of). In the club, M. Hwang often interupted classes and started going off on a tangent and talking about irrelevant things, and quoting Jesus Christ for example. This is religion, and this is not what I wanted in a Hapkido school. So I agree with JRT and that it should be kept out of the club. It is irrelevant what nationality, religion, creed, colour or political viewpoint one is from. If Hapkido is "for everyone", as M. Hwang told me, then it should be taught to everyone equally so that all can develop and "forge their spirit" to become better human beings. Hell, it is exactly what he advertises on his own web site. But deliberately injuring, embarassing, or humiliating someone in class is not forging anything other than resentment and low morale. Do you want people to go and stay at your club or don't you?

As for Austinso, to call someone "numbnut" on an open forum is simply childish and immature. And so I won't even take the time to "grace" that, for there is nothing to grace, just stupidity. Grow up kid. My sole intent was to answer people like Joseph5, who posted that he was interested in eagle and if anyone could help him out. Again, I can speak from my personal experience and that of the vast MAJORITY I have spoken to, who have spent any amount of time there, that M. hwang in very knowledgeful YES. But irregardless of this or how hard I trained, on some days he wanted to teach and on others not. Why? God only knows.

I'm sorry that my candid facts make MJR uncomfortable, but I do not see a need to "couch" anybody's feelings unless you are volunteering to re-write our Canadian 'Charter of Rights' or 'Constitution'. If not, then I, like yourself and everyone else, are free to express myself as I wish. Free to think and feel what I will. And if I feel like I am ****ed off because I have been wronged of deceived in some way , then I will be. My expression is still far more tactful than calling someone "numbnut." In the future, it isn't necessary for you to suggest to anyone to "couch" their feelings, as you yourself do not in your numerous posts, where you do give off the sense that you are the foremost authority on everything.

I think Shadow Warrior makes a very good point. If you think you have found such a good school and teacher such as at eagle, then why would you send your own son to train somewhere else? Of course, you could say this is none of my business, and you're right, it is. But the question still remains. I have checked out your posted website for spiritforging. In your introduction, you use the word "we" an awful lot as if you train with a group. But in your last post, you admit that you only have a handful of "fellows" who you train privately for non profit. Your website would suggest otherwise; that you are a little more established than this. It would then suggest that it is false advertising. Now that IS interesting. I am starting to have my doubts about you MJR.

In summary, I tried to present my personal experiences at eagle, and that of MANY OTHERS, as carefully and honestly as I know how. I understand that no ONE school is for everyone, but some schools are for some people. I was initially led to believe that eagle was for me, and in fact, was told that it was. But it proved to not be, and resulted in a serious injury to me both physically and psychologically. If my post has offended anyone at all, I apologize to them (and to MAP). That was never my intention. Instead, my intent was to inform people like Joseph5 and others to be CAREFUL when choosing a school. If you get the sense that something fishy is going on, do not ignore your instincts. Chances are, there is. If the teacher is "uneasy", then I assure you, your stay there will be also.

I hope everyone finds the stability they are looking for in life. If that be martial arts, then train hard, train safe, and above all, respect each other. With this kind of knowledge comes a social and moral responsibility, and should not be put in the hands of just anyone.

Peace to all.

 

eagleeyes

I have to agreed with eagleeyes. My question is why was everyone and smiling and laughing about this fee? I think somehow somthing you may have said during your training there lead them to believe you could afford the $100 so you were asked to pay it.
I heard other stories about certain instructors/ masters when you walked in and said somthing like I'm a doctor and would like to join, all the fees were magically doubled and you need to sign up on the duluxe program. That is if they sense you have money they have no problem in charging you extra.

The really sad part of this entire story is that you really wanted to learn hapkido and you had the misfortune to sign up at a school that didnt really care about you. And now with your injuries you may never get to learn any martial arts. I'm glad you came forward to save others from making the same mistake.

 

Let me get this straight "eagleeyes":

You have a physically demanding day job, and that was your excuse for not working hard all the time...? And everyone else in the school somehow didn't have demanding jobs except for you...?!

You wanted Master Hwang and his senior students to be considerate of your situation and exhaustion, when all you could have done is come by at times when you were well-rested...?

You expected private lessons from Master Hwang and his seniors to lead you by your hands to tell you how to do each and every technique...?

Sorry...did you expect a hug everyday at class from one of the "deviants"?

And of course, you are somehow the spokesperson for "the vast majority" and "many others". Of course you have been in contact with all the former students of Master Hwang, and have formulated an opinion based on *all* his students. That would of course permit you to make "quantitative" statements like "vast majority" and "many others".

A black man says that he has never experienced racism from Master Hwang, and you discount his opinion as the minority.

The school has always been flexible about fees and training, yet you characterize Master Hwang as a "con-man". Somehow, everyone was aware of the fees except for you. And seniors were "laughing" at you when they requested a purported "extra" fee...?

I don't think so.

I don't doubt that you were not pleased with the school.
I don't doubt that your expectations as described above were not met.

There is nothing wrong with being unable to learn in an environment where you are not micromanaged. Different people thrive under different circumstances.

But when you start slandering the school and slandering the teacher and play the victim card, it is not being "graphic", it is demonstrating a weakness in character.

Austin

P.S. Yes...sometimes I engage in petty namecalling...but generally I do it when it fits the bill...afterall you did not deny that you stood outside city hall advocating that homosexuals be punished by death...

 

KoreanWarrior

KoreanWarrior:

I will say that as a Korean, I find your handle and your attitude toward MA training as an embarrassment.

Austin

 

Austinso:

I will say that you then, as a Korean, seem hardly able to look at M. Hwang and his school objectively. I was merely posting for those like Joseph5 who didn't have the experience there, like I did, to be careful.

I never said I was the official spokesperson for everyone who ever went there. But I did mention that I have spoken with many people who did attend there at different times, and witnessed the same things that I did. It seemed curious to me that so many would have pretty much the same things to say, and so I thought it was time someone posted for those interested.

Choosing a school is a very personal thing and with so many schools out there, a willing student must be careful and choose wisely. The idea was not to deter anyone from going to eagle, but to simply describe my experience there, and to let them decide for themeselves. Likewise, no one has the right to suppress anothers opinion and so Korean Warrior has the right to his opinion as much as you do.

P.S. No I was not the guy standing naked outside screaming something about gays, but you could have been. What a perfect cover to accuse someone else.

 

From simple to political to simple

This was a simple thread about Joseph 5's interest in studing Hapkido,it then turned into mud slinging. I have been studing Hapkido for about 10 years. within that 10 years I trained in Master Hwang's club for about 3 years. I am a proud student of Shadow Warrior, he is a very close friend of mine. At Master Hwang's club I found it like Hapkido, to be very physically demanding. The students and senior students were always very friendly to me and helpful, why because I earned their respect.

It is an honour to have time with a master, head instructor or senior student. That is why when a new person joins you are put with a knowledgeable lower belt student. Then the master, head insturctor or senior student will watch how the new person is doing and offer instruction to help the new student with learning. As you prove yourself with in time the master, head instructor and senior student will spend more time with you. Now in my first posting of this thread, I sudjested that Joseph5 go to Master Hwang's school check it out. After, come to my school check it out make your mind up as to what school best suits you. Like other people have said "not all schools are for everybody."

Now for the mud slinging, I stopped training at Master Hwang's school because most of the higher belts did not show my instructor proper respect when we were training together. One such person is a member of this forum. Don't even say I am wrong. I don't appreciate attacking someone's character when he is giving information. If you disaggree fine rebut. Then we can all learn.

If Joseph 5 is interested in trying out my school send me a message and we can talk. The character attacking has to stop.

 

Let me get this straight:

*I* am not able to look at his school objectively (I in fact encourage people to drop by and form their own opinions) while your first contribution to this thread was that Master Hwang was a "joker" and a "crappy teacher" so don't bother going.

Well done eagleeyes! Well done!

"Many", eh?

"Many" (or should I say "vast majority") of these supposed "former students" thought that Master Hwang was racist, yet two african canadians continue to train there (three had Andrew not been killed God rest his soul).

Many/vast majority of these supposed "former students" felt that he was not a good teacher, despite the fact that a single person here who has trained with Master Hwang agreed with you.

Need I go on?

Do you honestly think that this trick of invoking this imaginary "many" is going to convince anyone?

You have every right to express you opinions.

And by that same token, everyone has every right to critique it.

Clearly you didn't like the well-reasoned response provided by MJR nor of anyone else here, so you decided to continue and enhance your slander in the hopes of convincing others otherwise.

Everyone to a T has suggested to drop by and check it out and form their own opinions.

You on the other hand, resorted to name-calling right off the bat.

Thanks for coming out...

Austin

 

Hello Eddie...I was a roomate of Jeff Hayes and George Workman...

I respect your loyalty to your friend and your teacher, but I think you should review the development of this thread before reaching any conclusions.

Austin

 

Name Calling

Hi Austin, if you are the Austin that I trained with at Master Hwang's, "How are you? Long time."

The development of this thread took a change when Eagleeyes called Master Hwang a joker. This is something that I feel is in very bad form. Whether it is true or not people should keep name calling to themselfs.Also someone called Master Hwang a racist, these are personal attacks.


Originally Posted by shadow warrior
The thing which I do find quite strange however, is a person defending one school as THE BEST while running their own school interests and sending their own son to third school (complete with a testimonial signed as an assistant instructor of the first school). [/url]

Shadow Warrior never used anyones name or nickname in his post. So how is it slander. He exprested his opinion but did not use someones name.

Lets try to help Joseph5 in picking out a good martial art school for him.

 

“I have to agreed with eagleeyes. My question is why was everyone and smiling and laughing about this fee?”

This is his rendition of what happened. (Some embellishment may have taken place.) Who was this everyone??? Why would people smile and laugh? Do you think there is some sort of secret group that singled out eagleeyes, ripped him poff and “everyone” split the loot?

“I think somehow somthing you may have said during your training there lead them to believe you could afford the $100 so you were asked to pay it.”

I think you are making quite the space jump here with that assumption.
As a senior, a lot of the time I am present for the testing, and under Master Hwang’s directions I facilitate the test. Afterwards if the student(s) pass, they are greeted and welcomed by all the other students. It is a joyous time, where everybody is usually smiling and laughing. Student are usually told before they test that there is a fee, and reminded again shortly afterwards.



“Besides, not one of you answered the question of why I was required to pay the additional $100 dollars and others were not? Why the two standards”

To the best of my knowledge everybody pays. Some make a couple of payments, and some are given time to pay (Students)

“Paul writes that to call M. Hwang a racist is a "crock". I'm glad you personally feel that way and I am glad you found a place at eagle. But I say again as I wrote the last time, I am writing from the vast MAJORITY who I have spoken with and told me of their thoughts and experiences, which most of the time turned out to be the same.”

I have been there for over 20 years, and I have a lot of contact with the “vast MAJORITY” of student’s. Being of colour myself, don’t you think these "allegations" would have been shared with me in the change room, or while training? I am not a scary unapproachable “Punk”

“Paul says that a black belt is not the goal. But why then have a ranking system? The higher the belt, the more technique that student has learned and the higher they have advanced in their knowledge of Hapkido. Is this not the goal? To learn Hapkido! So in a sense, a higher belt is the goal”

Yes, there is a ranking system, but I think you missed the part about it being a “personal journey.” The “goal” is to learn Hap Ki Do. Obsessing about belts is a by-product of ego. This art has been polluted by ego, measurement, and the inability to delay gratification. A long time ago the honour of receiving a belt meant something, it indicated that you had made a journey of mind, body and spirit. It was very personal. Nowadays, I feel it has lost its true meaning. I want to make this very clear I am not judging those who use the belt system in a good way, or those who have “Earned” their belts, IMHO we only know what we are taught, and a lot have been taught the need to feed their ego. The scene from “Spinal Tap” with the guitars and amplifiers, comes to mind… 11 (Some of you will understand)

“Paul also writes that my "expectations of M. Hwang were childish." I exected to be taught Hapkido as per our agreement. What is childish about that?”
“What do you think hapens to a student who starts off with much hope and gets the sense that they are being neglected?”

Hmmm, do I really need to comment?

“I later got the sense that it was deliberate, and that M. Hwang actually sent him to injure me. For what reason I don't know, but I do know today that it was deliberate.

Yep, just minding your own business, training hard and Master Hwang sends someone over to deliberately injure you. LOL
I beginning to think you have a problem with narcissism and paranoia.

I understand that you feel the club didn’t live up to your expectations, and was right for you… To each his own, but to call Master Hwang a “Joker”, “crappy teacher” and “Racist” was stepping over the line. Also your relentless effort in trying to sling mud about the club, based upon fabricated hearsay, and unfounded assumptions, only shows that you have some deeper issues to deal with. Either that, or you’re just bored and enjoy playing “He said, She said” on the Internet.

Paul

 

The best way to resolve this thread is to appoint MJR as the consultant in this matter.

Anyone interested in training can contact him and he can recommend one of these training situations perfectly suited for them. This would be done with the potential students goals in mind. With his vast martial arts experience, I'm sure that he can help people find a good fit at one of these schools so that they can pursue their training.

www.eaglehapkido.com

www.spiritforging.com

www.salvosabjj.com/testimonials

If the student does not find what they are looking for through this process, they can look at the hundreds of other schools in the GTA.

 

Testing fees

I think most schools have a form you fill out for testing. On this form they usually ask the basics. Like start date, last test, current rank....etc, AND the fees, like yellow $25 blue $35 ... so you know how much and also you can see the future fees too. To just spring it on someone after the test\promotion whatever is rude, unprofessional ...

I think someone has already mentioned that the teachers skill is not in question but the manner in which persons are treated. We could be talking about a dance studio or weight training gym and this still would apply. I wouldnt go to a gym that was run down and dirty. I wouldnt go to a gym that the trainers injured people. I wouldnt stay at a gym that I agreed to pay$100 dollars a month for membership and then tried to ask me for extra $100 not written down or in the agreement.

Can we stear this thread towards how a school should be ran instead of this person is not a good teacher?

 

Well the OP had asked about a particular school "Eagle Hapkido in Toronto, Canada" and I believe he has received a few opinions, few of which spurred Mr. Stewart to begin a thread regarding slander.

Honest comments have been made and I believe Joseph has gotten some ideas.

Best bet is for him to visit the school and make up his own mind.

Perhaps you can start another thread if you want to continue on the topic of how a "Hapkido" school should be run.