I am just describing the way Soke and the Shihan were teaching it in Japan, we practiced it this way for a number of years, not sure where your version comes from? I will do a vid if I get time. Maybe you could do a vid of your way?
I few extra points as I understand Koku: The intention with the Shuto is to transfer the balance of the attacker onto their back leg so that they kick you with their front leg, as you counter with the kick they are twisted and of balance, the "push" with the boshiken should be before your foot goes down so that your motion unbalances them completely, of course I dont understand the technique completely, as all tai-jutsu work-in-progress. So how about if I show you my version you show me yours??
Not speaking as a Takamatsuden guy but looking at the pictures, turning the hips over more (which Noguchi appears to be doing) and driving upwards off of the rear foot (turning the heel up and out helps encourage this) would allow you to generate power on the diagonal without leaning in (feeding your face and balance) and "chopping" with the arm. Really Noguchi's shuto shares a lot of parts with a cross in structure, setup and power generation. When I was in the Bujinkan, the imagery I saw (but was never outright told as I recall, so this is just my take on it) is that most of the time, the shuto is like cutting with a short sword such that the blade makes contact and is pushed instead of pulled, like a glancing thrust. The shape of the hand allows it to slam as if that thrust were stopped by the tsuba. In other words it's like a palm strike with the rim of the hand instead of the heel, more than a chopping motion.
I guess there are a few things I'd add about this technique. The conversation was good at first but is getting a bit boring. If we are talking about the basic traditional technique, the shuto is downwards, the kamae(not ichimonji) dictates so. If you want to discuss changes that were made or different versions, that is a different discussion. My understanding of our ryu is that they are a progression. So you will learn certain things in the kiso, kihon, and kata of a ryu. They are repeated throughout and once has a basic background in them, a more advanced version will be taught. So, if you look at the downward shuto we're discussing, is it evident elsewhere? A quick investigation will show you that it is. Beyond technique, philosophy, and other things, we have to ask another question. Were the originators of these arts people who understood fighting and how the body works? Were they dedicated to looking for efficient and effective ways to deal with conflict and confrontation? If you agree that they were, then you understand that they would be looking for the most power with the least effort. If you had to fight an unknown quantity, you wouldn't want to be burnt out after just dealing with one attacker. The basic technique is almost impossible to pull off against a moderately fast attacker. So no jodan uke and then shift back inwards and shuto is going to happen. Don't believe me, have your fastest puncher at your dojo try to hit and pull his arm back before you can do the shuto. Have him do it ten times both sides, doing both the downward shuto and upward after shifting back in the normal jodan uke. If people post videos of themselves doing it, we will soon see that it is an unrealistic counterattack. However, once this basic pattern is down, one can start working on how to draw the attacker into committing more and instead of trying to blow his hand off to the side with the jodan uke, one can begin to intercept and draw it more into you and the waiting shuto. An upward shuto with you sinking and then trying to strike upwards and across yourself or twisting your body and putting yourself in a harder to defend position doesn't make the most sense. Is it possible, perhaps but doesn't follow the progression of the ryu from my perspective. To think that your strike is going to force him back on his heels is a bit optimistic, at best you will affect him enough to cause a momentary pause before his next attack(the kick). Even if your shuto doesn't destroy his arm, the technique should still work or else it wouldn't be much of a technique. Interestingly enough, it does. It works whether his balance is totally compromised or not. It works if he follows up the first punch with a punch from his rear hand or kicks with the opposite leg. Henka account for when the script isn't followed precisely. Correct positioning and technique also helps cover for unforeseen contingencies. This technique is more about bunting than trying to hit grand slam home runs. This kind of philosophy or strategy is found throughout this ryu and fits in with the progression. Beyond what Soke might have said or done, one should use their own experience and understanding to figure out what is best for them. Different things are done at different times and people are told contradicting things all the time. My own teacher has done the same. A particular way of doing a technique was complimented at one stage, at a certain point though I was told that it was wrong and dangerous. The new way I was shown was correct and appropriate for my new level and understanding, the beginner way wasn't. So again, as the first technique does it proceed on what you have learned before the kata begin? Does the same thing appear later in the curriculum? These are the kinds of things that have to be understood and internalized beyond what you might see or have been told.
How about you stop trying to incite problems in a thread which is going very well? You know full well he won't yet instead of contributing in a sincere manner you are using the thread to pursue your hurt pride, carrying on from something else that happened a good while ago. For a Ninja you aren't very subtle. Give it a rest for god's sake this is a good thread. Ps Dunc sorry fella but it needed calling out.
If the attacker's weight is transferred to his rear foot as a result of the shuto it would make moving that foot forward to kick with the front foot more difficult I think. My experience receiving the shuto has almost always had my weight moving to the outside as my arm moves to my right after being hit. This actually frees up my left leg to step quickly but as tori is standing in front of my right foot, rather than twist myself to reach him with my left leg I kick with my right instead. I'll have someone give me a few shuto today at the dojo and reevaluate.
Dean I see no reason why he can't show us a technique? But please get off my back your last 3 posts have attacked me, I think you have a problem with me, if so please take it to PM
Mod Warning: Keep things on topic and refrain from disrupting this thread or things will get sorted--this subforum is still zero tolerance. Now, back to a thread that has been going rather well.
I am quite the opposite of thinking this thread as boring, I know and like Koku very well and find it a fascinating waza. To change the waza is a henka, but we must first understand the original waza. And I am sure Soke didn't understand it when Takamasu sensei first showed it to him, as I didn't when Soke first showed it. It goes way beyond the dynamics, the timing and the distance, even the koppo and koshi and into something that Soke is always talking about, the "feeling" this can only be found with practicing the original technique 1000 times, as Soke puts it. We have been practicing it as it was shown to me 13 years ago and I would say I am just beginning to get the "feeling" this same feeling can then be applied without ant Kamae. I don't know how long it took Soke to get the feeling but this is maybe why he says don't look at his early videos. And regarding "power" your interpretation of "minimum power" contradicts what Soke is always saying of "no power" Also in terms of changing the waza to make it work, this just means you or your teacher haven't yet grasped the waza. A lot of beginners make this mistake, they assume the waza is wrong or doesn't work so change it and never learn it. The answer is in persistence and especially this year of Shin gin Budo, doing it naturally for Devine inspiration.
For the uke's part, please refer back to the video I posted here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074859501&postcount=42 When you do the uke for koku, you punch and then shuffle/hop in with your rear foot to replace your front foot that is kicking, teaching you how to achieve greater distance and power from a front foot kick(which has less range and power generally). So koku teaches a few things about attacking as well. If you look at Kan sensei's attack, you will see that the shuto does not put his weight back on his rear foot at all, but I know some will say that we shouldn't learn from videos(even when it's soke demonstrating the technique).
The continued digs at PR and now his teacher as noted even with some camouflage are obvious and disruptive to the harmony in this thread. We are lucky to have people of PR's calibre in this subforum, and your attempts to draw him into a 'fight' arn't welcome. I'd also love to see him move, maybe in one of those body suits . But everyone and their dog knows he won't, so lets let go of that notion. My 2 cents
The original waza is what was being discussed. It has a downward shuto due to the opening kamae(hint: it's not ichimonji). If you have practiced the original technique and understand it deeply, you will realize that an upward cross the body shuto isn't as effective or meet the requirements of the ryu's progression as well as the downward one. If one knew and practice koku enough, they would realize that it doesn't depend on the uke's balance being put onto his back foot after the shuto. They will also realize something about the shifting and taisabaki that are requirements to safely and effectively apply koku on any but the most compliant uke. They will know that the sinking footwork after the kick allows the horizontal boshiken to strike powerfully and safely. These aren't changes to the technique but things that can be gleaned from learning the original in the progression of teaching that this ryu has transmitted down from antiquity. My teacher can show his understanding and ability with this or any other technique you might wish to mention. If you try to apply any basic kata from any of our ryu, from kihon happo onwards, you can easily be thwarted by someone of any skill or who has an advantage in strength or speed. If you think the basic ichimonji that everybody learns is how you would use it in reality, you are woefully mistaken and misguided. There are many different levels between the simple basic movement, and the real technique(that isn't given away like a door prize). If one studies consistently under a master of these arts, one will be learning along that line of progression whereas if you just pop in from time to time for some face time and a whirl of different shihan's dojos, you will only get a limited understanding of what that means. Feeling is important, part of my discussion of the requirements for koku had to deal with feeling. Some of the things about the feeling and strategy of Gyokko ryu are kuden and unless you have a relationship with someone who knows them, they will remain unknown and unconsidered. However, feeling comes after years of dedicated and more importantly, correct practice. If one has attained a rank over a godan, they should know and be able to discuss and show their understanding of this progression, as well as take and demonstrate examples of what they say from different waza. Whereas one has to claim that they don't know or aren't sure, it shows that they have not learned correctly or are not in the transmission of knowledge in these arts(or both). It is pretty obvious when such is the case. Power is generated from a moving body with it's parts in harmony. If one is looking to do something with "no power," what exactly does that mean? I think anyone will understand that it means not using muscular strength to make up for a lack of skill or technique(very different from being weak and limp or not having a ryutai-dragon body forged from learning the basics of the art correctly), not forcing something that isn't working, and not relying on trying to "do" something to their opponent. Especially in Gyokko ryu, you will find if you do a dedicated study of the ryu, that it relies a lot on them doing things to themselves with you basically helping them along. It is much more mysterious and hard to get a grasp on than some of the other schools we have in our system. So saying using the least amount of power possible while getting the maximum effect is exactly how someone would interpret not using power. If you have had any conversations in Japanese with any of the masters of these arts, you would get a much more detailed description than what a simple English phrase like "no power" can convey. They might even show you how to get there.
I should add that my not posting any videos of myself in action shouldn't preclude anyone else from feeling free to do so. There are many vocal teachers of these arts who post on this forum, so if they want to show their understanding and ability that they are charging people money to learn, it shouldn't be such a big deal. I'm no teacher, and I have already been warned(threatened :dunno by a well known megadan that my identity is actively being sought out by some of the long term residents and that I should watch my back when they find out who I am. Since I value my anonymity, I won't be taking any steps that would potentially threaten it. If anyone wants to get a real understanding of koku or any other technique though, they should seek out a a Menkyo Kaiden holder in the art that it comes from and learn from them. If someone claims to know a technique deeply, either their words(posts here for example) or movements(videos), should suffice as a way of demonstrating said knowledge. While both would be preferable, if one has neither on one's side, they should just shut up and train as the saying goes. If I were a teacher with a dojo and a big name, I would have no problem putting my money where my mouth is, showing the world how much I knew in DVDs or clips on youtube, or books. If I did have some kind of tutorial or teaching material out for sale and someone attacked it's veracity or my performance of anything found therewithin, I would have no problem explaining my movement and why it was done a certain way. I wouldn't refuse to deal with my own mistakes if I indeed was making them just because I had an ego and reputation to defend and uphold. Nor would I make excuses or lie about who or what I was. Since I am not a big name teacher, my words here will have to suffice as my bond. I am not making things up and anybody can figure out whether I am right or wrong by trying it out for themselves or using reasoning. I apologize that I can't offer more.
After class today at the dojo I took some whacks, quite a few actually, of shuto to my arm as done in Koku. As I write earlier I found my weight being shifted to the outside which actually made stepping in with the rear foot simple and fast. Not once did I feel my weight shifted to my rear foot. I then took my turn delivering the shuto and observing the effect on my uke as well as asking him where his weight was each time. Uke's answers jived with my own experience.
That's pathetic, really it is. I don't always agree with you or how you convey your ideas but you are one of the few on here who is not only willing to but can actually engage in a technical discussion. Keep it up dude, it's a good and interesting thread.
And your acerbic tone, continued obvious disdain for me and quaint buddy support for PR is sweet but not conducive to a rational discussion on Koku, so I will say to you as I did Dean, please take any personal issues you have with me up in PM. Thank you, And I am sure PR would look just fine in one of those all in one Lycra body suits maybe an orange one? ;-)
Are we talking about the same Waza here? I thought we were talking about Koku, then shuto in Koku comes from the second Kamae: tenchiinyonokamae the function of tenchinyo is to draw the attacker in as if saying "heaven is this way" I still dont get your "horizontal boshiken" I studied dynamics for many years, lowering your body whilst doing a horizontal boshiken would not be practical, you would be combining 2 different directions. Ideally you want an alignment with your hips, shoulder and arm in a downward direction - combined with footwork and bending your knees to be able to take their balance with no power, remember they may be wearing armour (or have hidden weapons) so you dont want a high thrust and power with the strike, you might break your thumb. The idea of shifting the attackers weight onto their back leg is to encourage them to kick with the front foot, this is controlling their mental and physical state. And yes the fundamental waza from the Gyokko ryu does require some complicit nature from your uke, these are just forms, tools if you like to learn the basic mechanics of the movements, to then be discarded and moved on from, to the much more fluid taisabaki as you see Soke demonstrating today. But this initial form of learning is a partnership between uke and tori to allow each to learn the fundamentals, then once learnt non complicit attack/defences can be mastered. It is only once we have mastered these techniques without power we can say we have mastered them, we are not learning them to develop power, Soke said he only really started learning waza when he was very sick once and couldn’t use power.
