E-musha shugyo

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dunc, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    This thread was about developing technique so Im not going to steal too much attention. Just a few notes. What are the chances that 2 ryu-ha with almost identical names end up in one mans posession? Linages are maybe not always to be trusted (especially those starting with tengu or other mythical figures). What Ive been told, Shinden Fudo Ryu has been called different things through out its history. It was in the Toda family for quite some time. Maybe Takamatsu sensei split up the school or join together some, I honestly dont know. For me it is clear that what people call jutaijutsu is just a part of the SFRD. In the book Kukishinden Zensho there is supposedly a writing called "Amatsu Tatara Hibun no Hen" where the linage of a certain "Fudo Ryu Taijutsu" is mentioned (it also mentions Gikan Ryu).

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  2. Bonesdoc

    Bonesdoc Valued Member

    This is similar to the answers I have got before when asking about this.

    Other than a passing interest, whether it was originally 2 schools which became joined or has always been part of SFRD is probably difficult to establish. What I find more curious is that the jutaijutsu techniques are taught less commonly or at least emphasised less. I can figure that it may be only some of the shihan ( Ishizuka, Manaka etc ) were taught these or all were and only some choose to share. During the previous yearly themes it didn't seem to appear that frequently or maybe i wasn't paying enough attention.
  3. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Before I continue I would say this is just from old notes. I have extremely little experience in this school.

    I have the throw written as "looks a bit like gyaku seio nage. But using distancing and angle rather than the usual" I remember it as being not even remotely like a judo seio nage.

    The person was broken well before any throw also.
  4. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    One of the reasons one really shouldn't search for information about kata (from the nine ryū) online is the fact that one kata can be shown differently by one master to different students according to their level and their relationships.

    A kata like Matsu Kaze can look one way when shown by Ishizuka sensei to a room with twenty people (where at least half can't even do ichimonji), and entirely different when shown as part of a one-to-one transmission where the technique and movement evolves just as the student does.

    Often people will see one version, and then create reasons in their own minds for not doing it in a different way (if I would do it like this, the enemy would respond like this, etc). Yet the different way might also exist, but it would be more apparent only when one has reached a higher level in the practice.
  5. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    That is correct, at least from a Genbukan perspective.

    The densho that I have seen, coming from Hatsumi sensei, is titled Shinden Fudō Ryū Dakentaijutsu, and starts with the Jūtaijutsu section (as has been previously mentioned). For me, even though I haven't even scratched the surface of the ryū, the progression is natural and the Dakentaijutsu part builds on the Jūtaijutsu part.
  6. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    As far as Matsu Kaze goes, it's just my 2 cents but I think the strike to the point called matsu kaze is the most interesting, important and difficult part of the kata... not the finisher that comes after. Hence the name ;)
  7. Bonesdoc

    Bonesdoc Valued Member

    Ok, so assuming there is a natural progression ( and I can see the logic for this ) in SFR starting with Jutaijutsu and the Dakentaijutsu then builds on this - Why is the majority of the teaching SFR centred on the waza from Dakentaijutsu? It seems unlikely that it's because we all have competency with the jutaijutsu waza.

    Just interested in why you think this occurs.....
  8. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Thanks for responding. Really that goes to everyone who chimed in.

    Honestly I'm just interested in discussing the biomechanics of the technique, like my example of Osoto Gari earlier, I set it up one way, my friend sets it up another, we talk about it and it gives me some insight into the technique. Even if it doesn't change how I personally execute it. In the case of Matsu Kaze it is another technique that I actively try, with decent success, in gi sparring.

    Everything else, who was qualified to be taught what and why, is just the kind of topic I'd prefer to avoid.

    And I'm not writing this to belittle your response, you didn't invent the culture, you're just pointing it out and I appreciate that. And I don't want to be rude by not responding to these answers, so I want to explain why.
  9. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    For the same reason the weapons section of these ryuha are not openly thaught. There is no real transmission in the dojo where everybody shows up. Like BigWill said. Depending on who is there different things are shown.

    Last month I was in Japan and this happened exactly as Big Will said.
    The kata was completely differnt depending on who was there.
    The jitsuden is only shown in inner circle of students. As soon as there are others present it is hidden.

    The real transmission is only one on one and you have to be there at the right time. In the beginning when Hatsumi sensei was teaching there were only a handfull of students. Ishizuka sensei has been with Hatsumi sensei for more then 50 years. Its only natural that he has received and seen more than people like shiraishi sensei, noguchi sensei and nagato sensei who started decades later.

    So it is key to be there at the beginning of a new soke being formed. So you can practice with the new one as he is learning and practicing what he is being thaught in private/ one one. So you can follow somewhat of the same path.
    Ishizuka was with Hatsumi sensei at that time. Often he would train with Hatsumi sensei in private before the dojo class when Hatsumi sensei was training with Takamatsu sensei so Hatsumi sensei could figure out what he learned. In the dojo the lesson would already change to cater to the shortcomings of the students.
    Its just history repeating itself.

    For Takamatsu sensei it was the same, there is a story in his dairy that he left to Hatsumi sensei where he describes that after the dojo classes of his grandfather, after everybody had left, his grandfather would close the doors and say: now we can really practice the correct way and he showed him the true way.
  10. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    I would add that what is in the public domain in the Bujinkan is only a fraction of what Hatsumi sensei received from Takamatsu sensei.

    Not only are three complete ryuha not taught.
    In all the other ryuha large parts of the den are not shown and taught publically.

    Examples of this are Togakure Ryu Koppojutsu, iai, sojutsu and tachi, gyokko ryu koppojutsu.
    Koto ryu kenjutsu and iai, koto ryu sojutsu, gyokko ryu kenjutsu, kodachi and iai, gyokko ryu hanbo, jo and bojutsu, Shinden fudo ryu iai and kenjutsu, takagi yoshin ryu kenjutsu, iai and nawajutsu.

    Menkyo Kaiden holders like Manaka and Tanemura never received these parts.
    The late Oguri sensei was Menkyo Kaiden in TYR but has never received the nawajutsu section. And was totally suprised when he was shown the scroll a couple of years before he died.
    Someya sensei who is well known as one of the sword eachers in the BJK, and a former student of Manaka, wasvery suprised when he was shown a makimono on Gyokko ryu kenjutsu a few yeara ago because he didnt know it existed.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  11. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm sorry to say that find this line of thinking to be quite divisive and leaning towards "cultish"

    But either way this is getting off topic... Could we start a different thread if the folks training with Kacem want to talk about 121 transmission, which shihan know the one true way and who's being secretly lined up to be the next soke?
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Matsukaze is basically choking the guy and then doing seioinage(dangerous for obvious reasons). The jutaijutsu isn't taught as much probably because it actually requires the ability to do jujutsu(throws, groundwork, and the like), and many lack the basic build and ability from a lack of exposure to judo or some other throwing art as a basis. Many of the techniques are purposely hard to roll out of and leave less room for error or both parts. For example, there is one throw where you lock both of his elbows and block his knees and then throw him headfirst(no arms to cushion or allow to roll, no ability to use the legs to lower oneself into any potential roll), as well as a throw where you change his trajectory mid throw. Many of the names are poetic but the techniques are not.

    Jutaijutsu and dakentaijutsu go about the destruction of the opponent from a different perspective. In either case, the idea is to let the bigger force of nature do your work for you, the question is do you do so by striking to throw moreso than throwing to do so? Jutaijutsu is a bit more dangerous, as some of the techniques require highly refined ukemi as well as a lot of control and holding back on the part of tori so as not to damage their partner.

    If you can't do the basic judo throws, you probably will not be able to do Shinden Fudo ryu's either. There are differences in mechanics however, so at a certain point, judo habits would get in the way of doing them properly(but one with a solid judo background would be better off until an advanced level).
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  13. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply. And yes I do realize the throws are not judo throws. Judo does happen to have a variety of throws with similar characteristics so it's easy to use the names in a general description.

    So with that in mind, when you learned the basic kata, was the throw similar to a morete seoi nage?
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    The important issue with matsukaze is attacking the point matsukaze with your thumb as you choke the guy. The controlling of his arm and variations of the throw are secondary to that. How you hook his gi(if he's wearing one) and use that to attack the neck are the main point. You are basically hanging him then throwing him to add insult to injury. His weight does the work for you. There are some more details with the elbow of the neck gripping hand, footwork, and how you deal with his arm, but those are best shown by one's teacher.

    ps-not sure if I'm understanding your question? As opposed to an ippon seoi? The basic grip is up high on the gi, as your are catching their clothing and using that to assist with the choke as you throw.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  15. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Yes I just meant as opposed to an ippon seoi or an Osoto gake... Both variations I've seen online but not how I originally learned it. I'm just curious.

    I just prefer not to get into any other the details mainly because I'd do a terrible job describing them. And I agree that the details really need to be learned physically.

    To take an example of the much less divisive topic of judo, where nobody understands the deep and meaningful significance of my purple hair, you can write a book describing something as simple as a juji gatame but until you've learned it from a good instructor who can show you what it feels like during all of the stages from setup to execution, and then done it a thousand times against a resisting opponent your armbar is going to suck.
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Yes, more like morote then. You lift him up by his neck though, or rather his weight is suspended by his neck moreso than you manipulating his arm(of course it is though), it is like being hung by a noose, then thrown down.
  17. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Yes that describes how I learned it... Better than I would have done. Thanks for answering that.

    Would you describe the footwork as more or less important than wearing those cool looking ninja shoes? Footwear matters too you know.
  18. garth

    garth Valued Member


    PMed you
  19. skuggvarg

    skuggvarg Valued Member

    Hmm, I can see how you may interpret it that way. There is only one way to find out. Seek out Ishizuka sensei yourself and compare...At least he knows the SFRJ waza for sure...

    Regards / Skuggvarg
  20. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Ishizuka sensei is awesome!!

    It's the statements suggesting that other folk are somehow inferior (as opposed to different) that I find distasteful

    And the fact that Kacem (who I think has a huge amount to offer BTW) is increasingly being presented as the Chosen One by his devotees makes me worry that people are getting blinkered in their perspective

    Both of these factors are very divisive, which in my view, is contrary to the direction that Soke sets for us

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