Great points - thanks As mentioned earlier in the thread I do think it's important to train from different situations/timing. e.g. during the attack, once it's landed but before it's consolidated, once it's properly on But I appreciate the point you're making This is an interesting point and quite different to how I've been taught so it'd be great to explore what you're saying if that's OK? The kihon that I've adopted is my best attempt to emulate Seno-Dojo's approach (which has been my source for fundamentals over the years). The approach that's taught is to step then shift so that (a) both your legs can engage in the movement and (b) you're grounded on both feet when trying to move your opponent This seems to make sense biomechanically too I think, but I think you're suggesting that moving your opponent during a step (i.e. you're on one leg) is more efficient?
In the new version of ****o, you are still stepping backwards either as grabbed or soon after as you cover. The sidewards step is also unnecessary and unlike Koto ryu in that when you step, you aren't striking. In Koto ryu, you strike with your steps to generate power, not just step in isolation to anything else. There is no point in practicing as if against a wall when you have such nice big walls in your hall. Have the guy put you up against a wall and try it from there. Better yet in a corner, so you don't have the idea to add steps to the side. Benkyoka is right about the choke, but the best way to advance in getting better at this technique is to isolate the parts. Have the guy choke you with both hands on your neck and learn how to ride his arm to do the strike, that way you will stop wanting to loop and do a hooking attack. The direction of the strike is not in a loop, it is along his arm and at a precise angle to his temple. You could alternatively have him grabbing your chest and practice from that limitation. In your videos, there is not enough limitation to your movement, hence you henka into new ideas instead of dealing with the true problem. If he was really doing the cross choke like you demonstrated, there is no time for adding steps. So either make the attack more basic(double hand choke to the throat or grab to chest) or do this choke a bit more realistically(probably a bit too difficult without first mastering it from the chest or a simpler choke). This will also improve your footwork, and body footwork integration. As for the omote gyaku, besides the footwork, you are dragging his hand/wrist instead of using the footwork and cutting motion of the hands/arms to do the throw, thus you are pulling him instead of throwing him. No matter what omote gyaku you train, the ideas are the same. Footwork and hands integrate to do the technique, your chest and legs are important, and you don't want to muscle it or push/pull him down. You want to have his arm in front of you and not to your side so that you are covered while doing the throw instead of open to a counterattack. Another way to work on ****o or the footwork found in many of our ryu is to stand with a wall in front of you almost touching you and work on moving forward to either side without hitting it. This gets vital when doing any kind of muto dori training, because if your footwork and body evasion skill is lacking, you will get hit every time.
Each movement of yours should affect your opponent or put you in a safer/stronger position or both. in your video you take his hand off by turning away from him then turn back to him again which starts applying the lock. But while you take that step back nothing happens to him. When you move without effect it creates a gap or dead space of time which any competent opponent will and should fill himself. When you move your foot back in isolation you remove it from what's happening. It won't be useful again until your weight starts to move towards it again. Until then it's only the strength in your front leg than initiates the movement and if he's resisting usually that strength isn't enough. I've been taught to send my entire body back with the step. It is the same movement as with Jodan uke.
Probably there are more than one way to generate the power The approach I'm trying to emulate is shown here http://youtu.be/tyqeW4AbpM4 by Soke at 24.30 I should be setting up the lock with the step, but you're right in a couple of instances on the vid this is sloppy - thanks
Hey Dunc, If you're still taking requests how about some classic rock? Maybe a little Zepplin or Doors. Oh, and Matsu Kaze. I ask because I learned it as having a morete seoi nage (with a slightly different grip) as the throw. I've seen several people online demonstrate it with an Osoto gake instead. I realize there are variations depending on uke's footwork but I'd be curious to see what most people understand the basic kata to be and why. If you're too busy to film no worries, I'm just idly curious.
Oh, sorry. It's part of the shoden gata of shinden fudo ryu. There's a few examples online but they are slightly different than the way I learned it. Again, not really that big a deal, just a curiosity really. Thanks for responding.
Ahh - OK I studied the Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu only a couple of times and a long time ago. I've not seen SFR Jutaijutsu taught for many years in Japan (the focus is SFR Dakentaijutsu). The teacher that taught it left the Buj so I haven't really devoted much time to this school Sorry - I'll dig out my notes and see if there's anything there
The SFRJ was taught in one japanese dojo when I was there about 3 weeks ago. Should be taught prior to the SFRD in my opinion. Lots of cool waza in it. Checking my notes on Matsu Kaze it says nothing about the attack other than that the attacker grabs kumi uchi (quite possibly to attempt a throw). You move back in kamae and attack the Matsu Kaze with your thumb and so on... Regards / Skuggvarg
Thanks. My question is in the 'and so on' part, after attacking Matsu Kaze there is a bit of weight shifting and footwork, which I hesitate to describe because it's a lot of typing and I doubt I'd do a very good job, but the end result is a throw with, as I learned it, morete seoi nage (except for the 'armpit' grip). I've seen some examples online that end with an Osoto gake. Out of curiosity, which throw do your notes describe?
Regarding Matsu Kaze: As noted, it's from SFRJ and for reasons I have not understood the techniques from this part of the Ryu aren't taught very often. As Dunc noted there was one Shihan who did teach this but has since left the organisation. I have seen this kata taught in Japan once, from a trip a while back. After checking my notes I have the attack same as Skuggvarg described with Uke starting with kumi uchi which suggest the intention to throw tori. Tori counters in kamae and uses the thumb to unbalance and take down with the right behind or adjacent to uke's right foot, but the ending in the basic form didn't use osoto gake. Ending with osoto gake, however, was shown as a possible henka/variation. I put this up to see if helps with the question asked and I'm not suggesting that what I saw was definitive as it may simply represent what that particular Shihan wished to show during that class. The problem here is that I have a feeling that very few people outside of Japan have been shown/taught techniques from this part of the school. HTH
It's a bit off topic, but my understanding (and it could be wrong) is that the SFR Jutaijutsu is a different school from the SFR Dakentaijutsu
Thats what I was told many years ago too. Never made any sense though, 2 schools with identical name. Anyways, its rarely talked about that much. Why, I dont know. Regards / Skuggvarg
Im 100% sure its not a seoi nage like what ive seen some do (judo throw). Ive done a special throw where you step in behind uke. I dont have the name for it and its a bit tricky to explain it on a forum. Regards / Skuggvarg
Thanks Bonsedoc. The version I was shown seems to be a little different but if there's one thing I can say that's consistent, it's the lack of consistency. But I don't really view this in a bad way. In judo there's very different approaches to something as basic as Osoto Gari. Some people use the pinky up method of pulling their opponent towards them, some pull the elbow down. I don't think there's really a superior approach, just how you prefer to set it up, which usually has more to do with what is happening, how you and your opponent are moving, before hand. For Matsu Kaze the morete seoi nage makes a lot of sense to me because of the footwork I was taught to set it up, but that footwork is predicted on uke's reaction so it's easy to see why there are variations and why some people may prefer one way to another. Dunc, as far as your off topic, I honestly have no idea. I haven't heard that before but there's a lot of people that are a lot more invested in the history of the ryuha than I am. Hopefully someone who does know chimes in, it's an interesting topic.
My understanding is that Shinden Fudo Ryu jutaijutsu and SFR Taijutsu are really just two different names for the same set of waza. However Shinden Fudo Ryu as we know it (dakentaijutsu) consists of both parts; jutaijutsu and dakentaijutsu. Why it was split up in the past, I dont know but I believe Toda sensei openly taught the jutaijutsu part in his Dojo (which supposedly had a sign with "Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu" written on it), possibly keeping the daken-part secret. Regards / Skuggvarg
Skuggvark is right. In the densho and transmission Hatsumi sensei received from Takamatsu sensei it has the Jutaijutsu section before the dakentaijutsu section, which is followed by the weapons section written in Kambun. Ishizuka sensei is one of the shihan that teaches every part of this ryuha. In a few days Kacem will be in Rotterdam teaching Jutaijutsu and the sword of SFR.
Skuggvarg posted From what i understand Jutaijutsu and Dakentaijutsu are two completely different schools with different lineages. Just checking on the Genbukan site and its says Dakentaijutsu Lineage En-no-Kyojo - Ryu Enpi (Kokuido Kenji) - Minamoto Hachiman Shichiro Tamenari – Minamoto Hachiro Tameyhoshi – Mizuhara Kuro Yoshinari - Shinmon Kokajya Yoshikane - Ohtsuka Daikuro Tadahide – Kouga Tarohyoe Ozunu – Abe Muga - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu – Takamatsu Toshitsugu Uoh Jutaijutsu Lineage: Shigemura Kamon-Hyoe Masahide - Asahina Goro Minamoto-no-KIchihei – Ohtone Sakon Yasumasa - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu – Takamatsu Toshitsugu Founder of this schoool was ‘Asahina Goro Minamoto-no-KIchihei’. Founder of Dakentaijutsu was possibly Abe Muga (He changed the name from Kijin Fudo Ryu to Shinden Fudo Ryu) Although be happy to hear anything else regarding this school. Also heard that at one time Takamatsu called this school something like Muto Ryu. But could be wrong here. Anyone?
