E-musha shugyo

There's no need nor time to do anything like that(there is a technique in Gyokko ryu where you open his neck to a strike with your footwork as you take omote gyaku but I digress). Assuming somebody is grabbing your chest or choking you or reaching forward towards you, you first have to get out of the way or free yourself up before trying anything fancy. If somebody attacks you, you hit them. Koto ryu can be summed up by that, move offline(working your way to their side) and hit. Hit, and hit some more. That is pretty common across most of our arts, you avoid and counterstrike. The striking and momentum and changing the angle of your body all help you to get omote gyaku. Trying to actually take omote gyaku without striking someone is best left to the experts. This technique comes up time and again in our ryugi, probably because it needs to be practiced a lot to make it work. The point of practice is to be able to get it in any situation from any hand position or angle, but the reality is that standing wrist locks are best attempted with a softening or distracting of the opponent. You have a similar idea in batsugi for example.

Besides just striking, Koto ryu has several techniques that go into how to strike effectively when somebody is controlling you. This is a very important aspect of the shoden level that is often neglected, how to strike when you don't have freedom of movement. From being grabbed and thrown, grabbed, grabbed and punched, and choked, there are many techniques that deal with you being constricted. As this is a ninja ryu, it makes sense that they would learn how to strike when immobile or hampered. The way you strike as you step forward is something that I briefly mentioned, but it also has to do with controlling his grabbing arms. This aspect is best left to be described by one's teacher so I won't add anything about that, but it is more than just step forward and strike.

 

PR makes some good points about not having the time to control an elbow, along with the other information he has given here. If you look at the densho it states 相手方が両胸捕りで締めに来る。 The opponent comes to choke you by grabbing your chest with both hands. (I am going to translate the 'shime' as choke here but it can also be constrict) Your actions are meant to occur before that happens.

Like the lunge-punch left hanging, quite often you will see people practice in the middle of an action instead of at the start of it or at its conclusion. (It is the easiest so people tend to fall into that habit) In your video your partner is grabbing you then waiting for you to do the technique however in reality if he has his hands on you and starts that choke things become very difficult for you. A lot of Koto Ryu is you attacking the attacker before anything starts to happen.

I have been shown this technique as you smashing his head as he is moving forward to lay hands on you. His forward motion combined with your strike to the side of the head sends him in a direction where the gyaku is easy to take as his arm is still extending towards you or is against your chest as he goes sideways.

Of course, really practicing for this effect means your partner needs to be willing to take some shots.

P.S. I want to say thanks for bringing this thread back to life. I have really enjoyed it. Funny story. My wife recently gave birth and I now spend long hours at night holding someone trying to get them to stay asleep. I reread the entire thread on my iphone during one of those sessions. Time well spent.

 

Benkyoka mentions some important things. How you train the technique is just as important as how you do the actual movements. You do have to start somewhere though, and the entire shoden level of Koto ryu stars with you being grabbed to be thrown, or punched, or attacked. The next level of techniques are almost entirely about preemptive striking and assaulting the guy as he walks up or appears to be about to attack. This shows you that timing was considered very important to this ryu.


However, you do have to start somewhere, and that means usually waiting for them to grab or attack you. This does not mean that you are daydreaming while they come up. How you position your hand that covers their grab is not as important as a beginner, but as you get to the stage where you have to intercept and try to control that hand as it is coming, it becomes vital. The grab might not be a grab, but a punch or thrust with a weapon. At a certain stage in your development, it shouldn't matter, you should be able to do the technique or apply the principles of the technique regardless.

How you move your body(chest, legs, but also hand and elbow) when the attacker starts to grab/throw you is very important and is connected to the higher level techniques in all of our schools. How you would move if pinned on the ground or up against a wall is first learned in all of these techniques that have you being restricted in some way. If you really want to understand and improve in this ryu for one, learning this foundation should be high on your list.

 

It might be useful to record each version as well. We seem to be missing a few each time you post videos.

In 4)Your covering hand should be intercepting and helping you control his grabbing attempt so that he can't actually grab you(i.e. Batsugi). It might also be good to try it with your back to a wall or pillar, then you can see what I was talking about with the forward movement and also the changing the angle of your body to his. The way you strike forward will also be important, as any mistake would be easily blocked or make much less powerful by his grabbing. In the videos you posted and some I've seen online, the way the tori struck the uke would not have worked if uke was anything other than a complacent target. When you are grabbed, you have much less freedom of movement in your striking direction and range of arm motion, none of the videos I've seen take this into account.

 

I'm probably talking out of my depth here,but i think it's a poor idea to show videos made for public viewing, be them from Bujinkan or Jinenkan, as a "this is how it has to be".

In classical martial arts, there are "ways" to display the move, or kata, for the public. These versions, have intentional mistakes in them. The elbow up in omote g. is a fairly obvious one if you ever competed.

EDIT: by show videos i meant videos of the "source" (Sensei Manaka, Tanamura, Soke). It's awesome to see people showing stuff from their own training and asking for suggestions.

 

EDIT: i'm talking about the Sensei Manaka, Tanemura and Soke. There are some, few but there are, vods of the Buj shihan that do actual teaching.

 

Ah sorry that came out way wrong I enjoy your vods.

What i meant is that the vods from "the source", be they Manaka or Soke, are not referance when it comes to the details. There are intentional mistakes in those "instructional" videos. They are nothing more then to give an idea of how it might look. From the little that i know, most of the public vods are "broken" in some ways.

 

If you were to make up the move, yourself, would you make it with the elbow protecting your body, or with it in the air to look cool?

I'm no expert in anything, but i think it makes sense to be as compact as posible. Limbs that are out and about, are not only leaving you exposed, but they become themselves a target.

 

Actually, it gets back to common sense. In most martial arts, they teach you to keep your elbows down. When you look at Japanese armour, even in daijodan, it makes sense to keep your elbows down and open at a diagonal instead of straight out at a 90 angle, as it helps the shoulder guards fall in the right way to protect you. If somebody grabbed you and kicked you with a roundhouse to the ribs at the same time, you would be rethinking letting your elbow go up and to the side. But that's not even the best reason to keep the elbow down, it is faster, more efficient, and less obvious that you are taking omote gyaku if you learn to do so. It is more advanced, so I can understand that it would seem more difficult to do than the basic way of opening up the elbow that you see many demonstrate, but that's part of the point. It is more advanced, but as with many more advanced aspects of these arts, there is a reason they are done that way once you reach a certain level in your development. They are harder to see and counter, while being more effective and faster. That should be reason enough, even without the added benefits of protecting your body more.

 

This is an important point. Most people don't cover the uke's hand properly, and so their technique is flawed from the beginning. If your elbow is behind your body and your hand(and elbow naturally) isn't offering your body any protection from the beginning, your putting your hand there is pretty meaningless. It has to cover his attack/grab, be undetected, set up whatever lock you are going to do, and allow you to strike from there without telegraphing. Same with once the lock is done and you've thrown him, if your elbow is behind your body like you are doing the opposite side of a karate punch(whether your palm is up or not), you are putting pressure on your posture and locking your scapula in the process. Not very helpful to doing omote gyaku. Even after the throw is completed and he's down on the ground, you should still be in a good position to followup with strikes or other locks.

 

About the grip in OG. I was shown how to do it, and then we practiced.(as beginers). When i was shown, i griped, and my grip was forcefully broken. So before the "move" was in place, my grip was already either broken or at least sevearlly weakened.

When i practiced, i would never ever ever release the grip for free. It is completely useless if you can do 99% of the technique, if you can't do the first 1%. Sure there are subtile ways to increase your chances, but if you can't put pressure at the right time in the right place on the hand, then who are you breaking away from? The move is meant to work against a trained warrior, so it has to be good.

 

You're kidding right?

You aren't seriously trying to compare your video to this still are you? In the picture of Takamatsu, we see his elbow is forward of his body, still down at an angle, and it appears that his inner arm is in contact with the opponent's left arm. At the same time, Takamatsu sensei's left arm is inside his opponent's close to his head. He has good posture, contact with both of his opponent's arms(which are already extended far from his body), and his footwork has placed him in what looks like a good position.

The question though isn't what Hatsumi sensei or Takamatsu sensei did at any one point in their life, the question is can you come up with a good reason or good reasons to have your elbow flaring out to your side that benefit you enough to counteract the bad reasons for doing it? If the answer is no, regardless of who you think you saw doing it, it isn't a good idea. That was kind of my point.

Back to the elbow. I never said that it shouldn't rise some, nor did I say that it shouldn't come forward, quite the contrary. I believe I pointed out the mistake of having it behind your body(from beginning of omote gyaku to end). The question is can you get the technique properly without lifting up your elbow to the side and exposing your body? If the answer is no, then you are still doing a very elementary form of the technique.

ps-these observations are based on a picture, and as the angle is different and it is a split second of actual movement, my observations could be off.

 

Again, is that a picture of Takamatsu sensei taking omote gyaku? Also, it isn't a one on one comparison, the angle is different, therefore the elbow position is very different. I told you some pretty good reasons why you shouldn't open your elbow sideways, even if it makes it easier for you to catch his hand.

Here's something you can try. If your elbow is open sidewards with your hand touching your chest, standing in front of a partner who grabbed your chest(to show the correct distance) and then put his hand down, see how far it is to strike him with a shuto for example. See how obvious and telegraphed the strike is.

Now do the same strike but with your elbow down and forward(like 45 degrees) and your hand in the same original position. You should find that it is easier and quicker to strike him, and less telegraphed.

If someone is grabbing and pulling or grabbing and pushing instead of just grabbing and standing there while you ninja them to death, you will understand the importance of keeping your elbow down and your body protected. Again, they can also grab and kick or knee you in the body. Opening your elbow up to the side does nothing to help you counter them. Just having your hand over theirs with your elbow up does nothing to control them, even if you have started doing omote gyaku. This is the same reason that you don't cover their hand with your elbow out from the beginning.

The grip isn't any better if you know how to use leverage and your body, elbow, wrist, and footwork to take omote gyaku. If you are relying on your hand to wrench their hand off your chest, then yes it might make sense to open your elbow out to the side, but it is a basic way to do a basic technique. As you evolve, your biomechanics and abilities to do more advanced things should improve.

You don't want to use your taijutsu to pull or push the opponent around. Sure, up to black belt level, it is important to learn the basic technique, choreography, and how to make things work on the average person. However, that kind of training should have been replaced well before godan. As you get better, you want him to drop where he is without moving around, and without as much effort on your part. You want to learn how not to telegraph your intent, as well as not rely on brute strength or things that can be easily countered.

Their hand is attached to your body because they are grabbing, they can either pull or push according to their desire, your technique shouldn't be reliant on them doing either or neither. Your technique should work in either case, without you adding openings. That is how you advance and move beyond the basic skills in these ryu, not by being stuck doing the same elementary level techniques no matter what the kata.