E-musha shugyo

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dunc, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm learning a lot from people's constructive comments and am convinced that a big issue with the buj outside Japan is people failing to get feedback for one reason or another. So I'm wondering if it's possible to crowd source technique refinement

    So here's a proposal...

    If anyone requests a form from one of the ryuha I will do my best to show the basic version as I understand it. Mappers will provide useful constructive feedback. I'll then try to incorporate this and post up a (hopefully improved) version the following week

    Hopefully we can all learn and improve as a result

    I suggest that the forms are limited to those described in soke's books as I feel that the ones that have been excluded are excluded for a reason

    What do you think?
    Class starts in 1/2 hour if anyone wants to kick it off...
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Bad-ass man! Can you show me the applications of the "Void kick" (as I learnt it in kata form and not the application)?
  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Oooops not sure I know what that is :-(

    Do you mean the last sanshin movement ?
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Looks like a teep (front kick/push) but you step forward with the kick rather than return to a combat stance.
  5. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Good idea! I suggest Kokū from Gyokko Ryū! I.e. in its most basic form for learning/teaching.
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hahaha and really difficult - I'll try
  7. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Gyokko ryu begins and ends with Koku.
  8. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    If it even ends at all...
  9. gregtca

    gregtca Valued Member

    Dunc, very brave of you to do, I think it's a great idea. Hope everyone can be a bit positive with comments. What I'd really like is to see a maga dan doing videos here , I know Duncan from tassie has some out there ,
    Again well done and good luck
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    This sort of thing?

    I was taught to practise kicking and returning to an even stance, the idea is that this balance gives you the choice to step forwards or backwards according to the situation

    Also, whilst it's trained as a push (for safety without pads), it should be more impactful and penetrative (with the heel) than shown here. The kicks are pulled and using the flat of the foot in this clip as it allows for some impact without injury

    Similar to the punching, the idea is to train to minimise the "tells" leading up to the kick. This helps hide the motion and also develops a free approach with your upper body to cater for different situations
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  11. Kurai

    Kurai Valued Member

    Very cool Dunc. Thank you for starting the thread.
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Thanks man, looks good :)
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Major props for this thread. Really.
    No comment from me on the tech as I don't do BBT. From a karate perspective we'd probably put a tad more 'hip' into it but it looked pretty sound to me. :)
  14. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Very confused!

    So if this is all good...what on earth did the nay-sayers think BBT was?
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Waiting for uke to politely lie down, then pinching nasal pressure points?

    Catching slow-motion lunge-punches under your chin?

  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Pretty much. Would still like to see some pressure testing though :/
  17. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    I think it's the context; ie. here we have a pleasant man humbly offering up his skills to date, honestly asking for any guidance from experianced people.

    As opposed to the usual rubbish of 'the master' demonstrating how it is done! And claiming 'bad camera angle' or bad hair day or 'messing around with mates' when their clips are castrated .
    Well done dunc. Others may follow suit.
  18. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    As requested here's a version or two of koku

    It seems like there are many different basic forms of koku. When it asked the shihan they consistently told me that as long as the form followed the pattern as described then it was the basic. However, there are many options that fit within the description and this unfixedness is an important aspect of gyokko ryu
    When asked about hitting butsametsu (or shishibatsu), I took away that it loosely meant the lower ribs (front or back)

    Here are two versions

    And one attacking form

    I then like to progress onto different 2nd attacks. Starting in a predetermined way and then progressing onto a more free form approach where uke can do whatever they like. It's good to increase the intensity as we get the hang of it

    In all the examples here we are going easy and not hitting hard or through the targets as it gets a bit much after the nth time

    The editing is rubbish (sorry I'm not using a PC), so I've left in some ropey examples and a few screw ups
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  19. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Thanks for putting the videos up! Really takes a lot of guts to do that on a forum like this, but needless to say the response has been very humbling and I think that if it keeps going in this direction the ninjutsu forum might (just might) get a better reputation.

    Here are my thoughts on Kokū - and bear in mind that they are just reflections on where I am currently in my own practice and it might all be wrong. But Kokū is something that I have focused on the most when it comes to Ryūha kata over the past six years, and what I have experienced under my teacher and then experimented with has seemed to function in not just a strict kata, but against different kinds of attacks (in the dojo), with weapons and (perhaps the most important) it has served in building a certain body structure which I believe is necessary in Gyokko Ryū.

    So here are a few of my thoughts, concentrating on the first and second clips.

    Ichimonji no Kamae .
    - I would keep the weight more on the rear leg - this way you can do certain steps and movements without having to shift the weight first. Especially when teaching the basic version of Kokū, I think it's important to show kamae as a strong structure that can be built upon for the future. One way of doing this is keeping the weight on the rear leg. A direct and practical reason would be that you could go into Hichō and kick the incoming attacker while doing a certain Jōdan Uke - without moving (since the weight is already on the rear leg).

    – The rear hand. Every time you go into kamae, your fist bounces a couple of times in the air before it settles down at the elbow :)

    Jōdan Uke
    There are several ways of doing the Jōdan Uke in Gyokko Ryū. Especially for beginners it's important to stress a correct uke. Here when you do it, there's no support in your arm from the rotator cuffs and the rest of the body. Basically, the way I have learned, you should be able to finish the opponent off with just the Jōdan Uke.

    – First of all, the step should be diagonally to the rear with your body in profile as you receive the attack. Now you pull the front leg so that your body ends up sideways and completely open. If you did the same movement with sword or spear, you would immediately notice the opening. When you speed up the attacker, things like this might happen, but then the whole body structure needs to be correct to pull it off. When done slowly like this, I suggest keeping the profile and doing a proper Jōdan uke with the elbow joint pointing down instead of to the side and your fist in front of your head (in the opponent's vision - this means you have to be low).

    - If you have done the uke correctly, your rear hand is still in its position at the elbow - useful for both attacking and defending. If you want to do the shutō upwards like you did, it's closer to the opponent and more difficult for a beginner. I would do it more horizontal as the basic. In any case, there is a way in Gyokko Ryū to turn the front foot as you strike. So if you go in for the shutō as you did, turn the foot in the direction of your body and shift all of your weight to the front leg as you deliver the strike. Don't telegraph the strike - initiate it from the elbow. For a safer version, take distance by moving the front foot (and leg) to the side as you shift and strike.

    The step

    Again, there are many ways to do the side step. One thing I would say though is that you should wait a lot more before moving away. A good uke would just change the direction of the kick and hit you. So wait until the very last moment (a good way to practice is to let the uke actually kick you in nine out of ten cases).

    The attacker
    You should give the uke a real scolding as he does not follow your instructions on how to kick at all :) In most cases he is kicking against a target that has already moved away, and the kicking mechanics are wrong.

    – I know you talked about grabbing with the front hand before striking with the rear. I personally would not teach this as a basic, because if you grab there are plenty of people who are good at using that to their own advantage. So definitely don't make a plan of grabbing, IMO. Instead, you can strike at the leading arm while keeping your own structure and profile.

    – When kicking, don't turn the body. Keep the body in profile, take a step with the rear leg to adjust the distance, and then kick. Without falling forward (like your uke did almost every time).

    Okay, I think this is enough… I hope you find something useful in what I wrote :)
  20. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Many times when I see people practicing Koku, I notice they are 'cheating'. Because they know a kick is coming after they deliver Shuto, the Shuto tends to be weak and they are already moving in anticipation of the kick before it even arrives. I see some of that in the video but then dunc wrote:

    "n all the examples here we are going easy and not hitting hard or through the targets as it gets a bit much after the nth time"

    While this is a sensible idea, now I am not sure if what I'm seeing is 'taking it easy' or misunderstanding of Koku.

    I'll repeat what Big Will said about Ichimonji no Kamae. The weight should be more towards the rear. Many people will have their weight shifted forward because it gives them that much more room when they step back and then shift their weight, increasing their distance. The downside of that is it takes more time to get your entire body away and above your rear foot. One other disadvantage to having your weight more centred is that you have to shift in one direction to take weight off the foot you want to move. You can see in the video you shift slightly forward to free your rear foot.

    The Shuto seems quite weak because it looks like you are not shifting your entire body weight onto the front foot when you are striking (in a couple examples). Usually this is the case because people are already preparing (cheating) for the kick that they know is coming. I think I recall seeing (will have to check my notes) that the Shuto to lower hoshi should be sufficient to break the arm. You also seem to be leaning slightly forward at the waist, this may not be the case but you can see your shoulders are not parallel.

    It is difficult to determine if your avoidance of the kick is sufficient or not because the uke is not kicking at you but where you were standing when he first started to free his leg to kick. You moved too soon and he would have been able to kick you if he chose to. Again, this is often seen when people cheat for the kick.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014

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