duels between portuguese and samurai

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Polar Bear, Dec 10, 2007.

  1. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    Actually Maniwa nen ryu (and maybe kashima shin ryu) has a lot of techniques using the bind. The tsuba is actually pretty well suited for the techjniques they use, and from my perspective a crossguard like a longsword would only render many techniques impossible to do. Other schools just don't stay in a bind.

    As for sparring with JSA people. I have witnessed that most people who get into such bouts have a very limited experience compared to their WMA peers, and are not used to the rules of sparring. They are often young men who did some aikiken, iaido or kendo and are looking to prove themselves. Also, using the results of such sparring to extrapolate on the superiority of a style over another is missing the point. It is supposed to be a learning experience for both "on their own training".
     
  2. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    You assumption is correct. A "typical" rapier is nearly as long as a longsword, which is usually longer than a katana. Some rapiers are quite long, with a four foot blade.

    -Mark
     
  3. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    That I would like to see! It's very hard to stay out of a bind if your opponent is determined to use one.

    I would like to see the techniques that use the tsuba as well, and see how close they are to analagous longsword techniques with the crossguard. Can you post some examples?

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Langenswert

    Below is a photograph of maniwa swordsmen about to enter into tsuba ate (locking the swordguard) As you can see even with the large tsuba binding as in western swordsmanship would not be possible.

    Releasing the left hand and locking the wrist and elbow is an option. Personaly I would attempt to grapple or strike with the pommel.


    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

  5. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    They have a very simple way actually to strike from this position. They simply go around the opponent right hand and strike as they direct his sword outside. Don't have a picture but when you see it it is obvious that a crossguard would be in the way. Meanwhile, here are some of their techniques taken from hidden bujutsu magazine. http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maniwa1b2lv9.jpg

    But some crossguards are present on nagamaki (see pic), naginata (see kagi naginata of Toda ha buko ryu) and yari. But for some reason they never thought it would be useful on a katana, who am I to argue with them? http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=naginatyzp9.jpg

    On another note, the original owner of this tsuba was probably very happy with it: http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kirikomisutsubavt1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    A bind can happen anywhere on the blade, not only near the cross. The Italians prefer to bind at mid blade (called an incrossada), whereas the Germans are more likely to bind slightly closer to the crossguard, but it's nothing set in stone.

    I like locking the elbow with the pommel and offhand... one of my favourites. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  7. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    We do the same thing, called "Zucken" a.k.a. Twitching. The crossguard doesn't get in the way at all. :) That is, if we're talking about the same thing. A twitch can be used (for example) when two opponents get in a bind having both struck diagonally downwards from their right sides. In the bind, if one opponent gives too much pressure, we pull our sword out of the bind and strike around. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Below is kessa giri we "accept" the direct cut and allow it to slide down the angle of our blade as we step out. This can also be done from bind. Sounds similar to what you describe.Kessa is a diagonal cut named after the kessa diagonal on a priest's robe often cut by samurai. :Angel:


    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

  9. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    This is actually much simpler than this, I'll try to find a demonstration by Kono sensei in one of my files. I guess it could be done with a crossguard, but it would depend on the size of it and the way you hold it.
     
  10. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

  11. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Indeed. In GLS, we have three varieties of that technique. The least extreme version is the Abnehmen where you lift your sword out of the bind and hit down again on the other side, the twitch, which is more circular, and the Snap, which is when your opponent has pinned your sword down.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Yeah, that looks like a Twitch or Abnehmen to me. Same principle, at any rate. :)

    -Mark
     
  13. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    Do you have any video or images of the technique? The only version I can get is the one from Zornhau demo, wich is not the same principle. In a sense yes, but it lacks some fundamentals.
     
  14. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I know far to little katana to be bastant, and you might very well be right. I have no problems altering my initial wiews when I learn things. But would the japaneese techniques you mention here work against a blade with a crossguard? I don't know of any crossguard-dependent techniques that only works if the opponents blade allso have a crossguard. (Except for one grappeling-technique, where you snake your left arm around the opponents blade, and grips it in the crossguard; I guess that one would be pretty stupid to do against a katana...)

    I agree to this, and I actually allso mentions it as one possible reason why rapierists/longsworders seems to win more often (given that it's correct that they actually do win more often...)

    Yes, you're probably right in this as well, and I'm sorry if my subjective byline causes this thread to end up as a ****ing-contest between "musketeers", "Knights" and "Samurai". I'm glad to see that we now are back in discussing and comparing techniques, and not discussing "who's best" :love:
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2007
  15. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    This is the point I'm trying to make when I say that I wiew the katana as a twohanded sword that is "less forgiving" towards the wielder, than a longsword. As most longswords have a crossuard of at least 14cm, often much more, the opponent have a longer way to go to counter with the blade than going around the tsuba. Pommelstrikes and grappeling becomes the only option. It seems to me that in the picture koyo shows, it's a higher risk that the opponents blade wittingly/unwittingly slides of the tsuba and ends up cutting of a thumb or slicing an underarm unless the technique is done 100% correct...
     
  16. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I'm not too sure I agree here. True, the longsword has a crossguard to protect the wrist and knuckles, but it leaves the sides of the hand open, which are covered by the tsuba, in much the same way as side rings were used in later ******* swords. I think it's more of a six of one, half donzen of the other kind of thing. Considering the hands are a favoured target in longsword, I don't think the crossguard gives that much more protection than a tsuba all-round.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  17. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Twitching is more of a principle than a specific technique. There are any number of ways to Twitch. Basically any time you disengage a bind and strike to a new opening is a Twitch. It looks like on your picture sequence that he's also controlling the wrists of his opponent in the twitch while reacting to forward pressure in the bind. At that close range, a GLS practicioner is more likely to twitch around, hooking his opponent's right wrist with his pommel (assuming there's a long enough grip to do so), pushing the opponent's arms down while striking him on the head simultaneously. But the principle remains the same, methinks. Or just grab the opponent's grip between the hands and disarm him.

    Another technique in the situation is the Durchlauffen (Running Through) in which you bascially duck under the opponent's blade (or push it up and then go under, depending), step in and throw him forward or backwards depending on the range, while hanging your own blade down over your back with your free hand for protection.

    Could you go over the technique step by step, that way we could compare more easily... static pictures don't do much without text to accompany them. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I thought that the arm may become vulnerable as you move from the left side of the opponent's sword to attack the right. Every time we make such a move we also align our body to avoid this possibility. Since our sword art must mirror our empty hand we dispence with the tsuba.

    This makes us feel very vulnerable at the wrist and emphsises the need for proper body alignment.

    As langenswert says a fuller description of the technique would be most helpfull.


    regards koyo

    In swordplay the samurai would have a kote armoured protection on the backfist and forearm to augment the tsuba.When not fully armoured a lighter version of the kote could be worn.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 19, 2007
  19. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    I am not a practitionner of that school so I cannot pinpoint the small details. You arrive in bind, lock at chest or head level. You let your opponent push in a small opening you create, enough so he can get caught in his own movement. Going back like this will let you switch side and just as you have done it, you must turn with your hips to your right and push with your right hand on his. Your only guiding him in the direction he took when he decided to push in your opening. You can also switch your feet to get more stability and power.

    Your arm is not in danger if you push the opponent's hand down the same time you switch side, if you forget this very important detail, then yes you are in grave danger. And yes, aligning your body should also act as a second security, from my point of view at least. But if you do it right, the opponent don't have much chance to counter given the speed of this technique. Unless he knew what you were up to. Then there are surely somethings to be done but as I said I'm not a student of this school.
     
  20. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    The version from zornhau does not begin from a bind but from a guard at a distance. It looks more like a standard kirikaeshi, where you just parry, realign and use the power he's given you to counter-attack instantly. The principle of using the other's power against him is also there in a certain way, but then it is in so many techniques.

    How is it approached in the treatise? Do they say: "the principle of the twitch is this :", and then you elaborate the techniques from this? Or is it: "here are the techniques involving the principle of twitch". And do they really call it this way, or abnemhen (I'm a little lost on the different names I must say)?

    Found a page with some techniques pictured, a bit easier to understand ;). http://www.truefork.org/Hajime/Blootvechten.htm
    Much of what I see can have it's equivalent in JSA, in one style or another.
     

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