Dry Needling?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Zinowor, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Oh undeniably (see what i did there?) but it is precisely this type of absement of science that allows morons like the anti-vaccination crowd to exist
     
  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i think of the western countries, its mainly america who sticks their fingers in their ears and yells "lalalala"

    because the evidence is strong for climate change due to human activities

    we had to learn about it in primary school and companies have policies (despite how ineffective)

    science has provided adequate evidence, the rest is up to governments
     
  3. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I don't normally get into these kinds of debates but let's face it, multi-billion dollar industries like 'Big Pharma' and 'Big Oil' sure do have a long history of elbowing out their smaller competitors (no matter what they were selling), and I think that probably includes a BIG list of potential remedies/fuels that might have been useful. Look at the big change in the US with certain previously *illegal plants*! There are all sorts of medicines/plants/chemicals that are kept out of the hands of consumers for no other reason than a lobby group here or political agenda there decided it was in their better interest to control the market using whatever influence (money, government) they had. I can see why no matter how good the science is, consumers don't always get the best product available. In my own experience, I've taken quite a few prescription meds whose chemical composition was later on found to be "a bad idea".
     
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You're talking about business, not science
     
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    It was also exposed that some of those studies had false data............

    .............and there was a cover up of that. It was a big scandal here in the US a couple of years ago.

    ..............a perfect example of politics and corruption affecting what is supposed to be scientific data.

    Let's not pretend that mainstream science is perfect and doesn't have biases, politics, and corruption affecting it sometimes.
     
  6. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Science doesn't happen without money/funding though, and science is big business nowadays. I Guess my point is you can always look at just the science itself, but when you start adding in the actual medical establishment...politics are inevitable.

    I'm equally distrustful of modern medicine as I am with "alternative", and for good reason. In my lifetime I've seen medical catastrophes caused by federally-approved medicine, medical imagery, and all sorts of supposedly safe and "scientific" medicine. "Evidence-based medicine" doesn't equal safe medicine, and that's more important to me than minor issues like how much of an effect is placebo or real...to me that is minor details (ie if it worked and it didn't do some damage...GREAT!...figuring out the exact mechanism is not at exciting). If the medicine is well supported by science today, that doesn't mean tomorrow it won't be found to be lethal in some way. Lots of people who go on heart disease medicines find out later that they're dying FROM the medicine, not the disease. Lots of expecting mothers from 1950-1970's took the DES medicine to help their pregnancies, and got breast cancer, and that is still a risk with birth control today. "Alternative" is usually harmless, there are multi billion dollar companies that won't think twice about peddling poison as long as they have the proper licenses and profit margin, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    which studies? what coverup?

    this is a great way to visualize what the deniers are up against.....but let's face it, denialism works when people have a pre-existing disposition against reason.
     

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  8. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You're going to have to be more specific, I'm not sure which side of the argument (if you can call it that) you're actually criticising.
     
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The way scientific research worked in the 50's is a world removed from how it works today. Back then you had no idea of the long term effects of drugs because you'd need to run a trial long term. That's not how it works anymore. We have a much clearer idea of how different chemicals will react with the human body. It's pretty rare a drug that isn't safe gets recalled.

    And you have to remember that treatments for serious conditions are often dangerous themselves. Chemotherapy and radiotherapy do awful things to the body, but they are less awful than the cancer inside.
     
  10. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I think you're referring to 'climate gate' right? This is a good description of what went down:

    http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2011/04/history-of-climategate

    There was no scientific misconduct. What the emails revealed are that scientists, even those working on politically charged topics, are human and can say nasty things about people they don't like. The specific quote that seems the most damning is as follows:

    "I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e. from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline."

    Sounds bad right? Well, not so much. The decline that the quote refers to is not about global temperatures, but tree ring density. Tree ring density is a proxy for temperature, as are ice core samples, coral colony growth, etc. Proxy data is what it sounds like - it is not a direct measurement of a variable, but a measurement of an effect that was caused by that variable. While other lines of evidence (like thermometers) showed that the Earth was warming during this period, tree ring density went down, implying a drop in temperatures. Far from covering this up, the scientists involved have published on this fact several times and speculated as to its cause. The trick that is referred to is using direct measurements of temperature in the place of the proxy data. One might wonder, then, how valid is the reconstruction of past temperatures if the proxy data is unreliable - well, that's why you need multiple lines of evidence in order to determine things with any accuracy.

    The controversy was manufactured by activists and doesn't really reflect what happened. Despite investigations by the United States gov., British gov., etc., etc. no fraud was found.

    Sigh, yup. I think the incident illustrates a couple of huge problems affecting the United States. 1) Journalism has not proven itself to be good at disseminating scientific knowledge to the public. Giving equal time to bad actors in the name of balance and impartiality does not work. Skepticism over climate change, the anti vaccination movement and intelligent design should not be treated as legitimate and equal stances because they just aren't. 2) Public education has not sufficiently emphasized scientific literacy. Most high school students get to graduation without ever reading a scientific paper. Rather than learning about the process of science, science classes are generally just memorization fests. I think this is also a huge turn off and dissuades all but the most passionate from embarking upon a career in science.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Side? The side that says all one side is all bad and the other is perfect.

    I have been the beneficiary of both Western and alternative medical treatments. Sometimes both have worked and the other has failed me.

    The doctors could not fix my ankle and wanted to do some exploratory surgery- they didn't even know what they wanted to scope my ankle for. My Eastern style massage therapist got it much better. It isn't 100%, but it got better enough to work out again and not need to have that surgery.

    Accupuncture has helped me in the past for some issues. On other issues, it hasn't worked. The same could be said for my Western Doctors who just wanted to ply me with heavy narcotic pain medication and had to be prodded to actually look for what was causing my pain issues.

    Yet, I have another issue where the Western medicinal treatment keeps me in good health. In ancient times, a issue controlled by a shot every couple of months might have been life threatening 100 years ago.

    I am on the side of not having biases against treatments that work for many people, and getting all sides to work together for the patient.

    And not letting competition for patients money, funding from the government, and politics affect the treatment options for said patient.
     
  12. Ros Montgomery

    Ros Montgomery Valued Member

    "Alternative" is NOT usually harmless! If a person chooses to use an 'alternative' method to treat their condition, then they may well die. All herbal medications can have potential side-effects (whether they actually purport to do what they state, or not) and interactions with other drugs. Unfortunately, because they have generally not been subject to extensive trials, these may not always be known. Additionally, even if a natural product has a known toxicity, the manufacturers are under no obligation to alert their customers.

    Just out of interest, do you think that 'alternative medicine' isn't part of a billion-dollar industry?
     
  13. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Most modern western medicines have side effects, the risks are carefully considered and weighed up by pharmaceutical manufacturers, general medical councils and by the prescribing doctor. If after all of that there are still some risks attached then how much more risky are "medicines" where some of the above steps are removed? Some may be safe but I for one wouldn't risk it without my GP approving it's use.
     
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    If you have any elderly relatives then it can be staggering the number of different pills they are taking on prescription. All these various drugs have to be considered in conjunction with the rest of the stuff they are taking, and it can sometimes be a case of trial-and-error on the part of the GP until they get the balance right.
     
  15. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Correct, my mother is 65 diabetic, disabled (due to ankylosing spondylitis ), over weight and suffers from high blood pressure and due to the medications she takes her immune system is very weak so she frequently has other ailments requiring yet more medication. The number of pills and injections she requires each day is staggering. I would not reccomend any one trying to manage conditions like hers without a GP supervising.

    GPs are not faultless and there is an element of experimentation in how they deal with most conditions but that same experimentation would also be required with any herbal,tcm, homeopathic or other form of treatment.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Are placebos the only type of cure that has no side-effects?
     
  17. FunnyBadger

    FunnyBadger I love food :)

    Interesting question, wish I knew the answer. Just occurred to me as slightly odd that there is more than one placebo. . .
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Does "supporting the alternative medical industry" count as a side effect?
     
  19. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be fair to say that a placebo is a cure that is proven to work, despite there being no evidence of any reason why it should, and it is assumed to work psychologically; whereas 'alternative' medicine hasn't been proved to work at all, otherwise it would simply be called 'medecine'?
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, a placebo is an ineffectual or inert treatment. Sugar pills being a common example.

    The placebo effect is when the recipient has subjective and/or objective effects from the placebo treatment.

    To muddy the waters further, the placebo effect is also a part of any medical treatment.

    So the definition is a bit fuzzy.

    There is also the nocebo effect, which is a subjective or objective negative effect. Like an allergic reaction to an inert substance wrongly identified as an allergen.
     

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