Dry Needling?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Zinowor, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Without exception, yes. Medicine works by evaluating the efficacy of a treatment against that of either no treatment and a placebo or another treatment already shown to be effective in a similar study (the ethical reasons for not using a placebo in trials for treatment of a condition which already has a positive treatment in place should be relatively apparent).

    This is a relatively low standard for testing a treatment. All that needs to be demonstrated is that there's a statistically greater effect than a currently accepted standard treatment while eliminating possible biases (this might, in the case of acupuncture, require that all participants are jabbed with needles but that only those on the acupuncture test group would actually be jabbed in the right places). If this cannot be demonstrated, then the treatment should never be used as standard. There may be cases where a less effective treatment is used, perhaps where cost or secondary effects from allergies might make the most effective choice suitable.

    Simply following historic practices isn't a good reason to do anything medicinal. If it was, we would still be using ancient methods of bleeding/leeching and trying to drive out demons causing illness. A scientific approach allowed us to work out what actually helped and what was ineffective or outright harmful to the patients.

    On that subject, there is no separate science applicable to the East or anything which is old. There is simply science - the systematic approach to working out effects based on causes or vice versa - and there is stuff which isn't scientific.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    We've been drilling holes in people's skulls to cure headaches for longer than we've been sticking pins in people. Does that mean trepanning is a valid medical treatment for a headache?
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hahahaha. Is that even a real question!?
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    [​IMG]
     
  5. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    If you have to ask that question, then you have a limited scope of view of something you know absolutely nothing about. Whatever it is you think you know, it is from someone else's point of view, and not from your own experience.

    For the record, yes I do speak with conviction, and with good cause for it. I'm not demanding anyone to believe what I believe - let's just have an open dialogue about both types of medicine.

    But as I said before, it's difficult to talk about TCM and Western medicine without getting into the politics about it. Let the arguments fly!!
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    No it is not a "limited scope" it is incredulity that you believe "does it produce results consistently and repeatedly?" should be a bad thing to be asking when looking at a medical procedure
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    There is only one type of medicine.
    If it doesn't work it's not medicine.
    If you can prove it works it's medicine.
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I wondered if it was a real question because the answer is so clearly "yes" that the question is pointless to even ask.
     
  9. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    If only it were that simple.

    I do appreciate the response.
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It is that simple really (with appropriate clinical knowledge and application of course).
    SCAM practitioners (Supplements, Complementary and Alternative Medicine) try to pretend it's not that simple because they like to muddy the waters enough that any old nonsense can be called "medicine" even though efficacy has never been shown (beyond placebo).
     
  11. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    Yes there are a great deal of scammers out there. But what do you do when your MD suggests acupuncture or chiropractic treatments?? What do you do when you're taking some natural medicine that you see and experience for yourself that it's helping you, but your doctor tells you not to take it "because they don't know what it is and they can't verify that it's really helping you."
     
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Acupuncture works for some conditions, but not because of magic chakras and that hocus pocus. A lot of chiropractic is borrowed straight from standard physiotherapy.

    There is no such thing as 'natural medicine'. There is only medicine. Aspirin is tree bark for God's sake - it doesn't get more 'natural' than that, but it's still just 'medicine'.

    Just because you take something funky and you feel better doesn't mean the funky stuff has made you feel better. It might just be a placebo, it might be that you were going to feel better anyway. Anecdotal evidence is useless.
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It IS that simple

    Seem the right time for this

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO-CbOmSj6M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO-CbOmSj6M[/ame]

    Best quote..."You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine"

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVV3QQ3wjC8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVV3QQ3wjC8[/ame]
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, it's not. I'm not sure there'd be enough land on the planet to grow that many willow trees.

    Aspirin is made from oil, as in the fossil fuel. The active ingredient was originally discovered in willow bark though.
     
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Here's a 4 part series about acupuncture as an anesthetic in operations that explains numerous things about it's propagation in the west:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-anesthesia-a-proclamation-of-chairman-mao-part-i/

    - Mao Zedong wanted to show the advances of the Chinese and selected special patients who reacted best to local anesthetic and drugs, much like older western practices rather than the general anesthetic the west now used. But it was represented as the miracles of acupuncture to break the superiority of the west

    - A 10th of the population of china at the time was TCM practitioners and Mao wanted their support but also to ensure that people were employed.

    - Mao didnt himself like chinese medicine and admitted to not believing in it. His physician was trained in Modern Medicine and believed that china's boost in population was due to modern medical advances

    - TCM practitioners did not officially use their craft under Mao's reign but were licensed to give inoculations and health/hygiene advice to villages. that way they could remain employed

    - American doctor's did not dismiss acupuncture outright in an attempt to be diplomatic but the pioneer of epidurals saw it as a placebo best used only only certain patients.
    American doctors did not observe this as a wide spread practice and the chinese host doctors confirmed this.
     
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I saw a great programme about statistics the other day where an animating graphic tracked life expectancy over time in various countries.
    There was a big jump in China in the early 20th century when modern medicine was introduced. :)
     
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    im reading a book about dowager empress cixi

    her son died of smallpox/syphillus and many of the royal court were affected by smallpox
    and they all used chinese herbs as treatment. she herself was chronically sick

    and to think all you had to do was rub your cut against an infected cow

    but hey - these chinese/indian/african herbs (made by people thinking that the stomach or heart contains the brain) must be good for you, your family has a random chance of surviving compared to those dangerous western vaccines which have 99% survival
     
  18. nefariusmdk

    nefariusmdk Valued Member

    The Chinese already practiced variolation, which was the precursor to vaccination.

    My question is: if your MD recommends alternative medicine to two cancer patients, and it heals one patient but doesn't heal the other, is the patient healed because alternative medicine works, or is it a placebo effect??

    If it is a placebo effect, then what does that say about how the person was healed? Was it completely in his mind? Even more baffling is when the person goes back for further evaluation, and the results show that the person was completely healed and doctors have no other explanation.

    Yes people are living longer, but people are also living with medications that cost $20,000 a month. People are living longer at 300+ lbs., in vegetative states where it costs taxpayer dollars to keep them alive. Acupuncturists are considered Primary Care Physicians in some US states because their government sees that preventive medicine can cut people's medical bills in the long run.

    TCM has just as many advantages and shortcomings as Western medicine. One is not better than the other. Yes, Western medicine can cure smallpox, transplant organs, and prevent the flu with the flu vaccine (side effects may include the flu). But TCM has been able to rehabilitate and heal people where Western medicine could not. Check out the documentary 9000 Needles as a start.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Need it be repeated yet again that the plural of "anecdote" is NOT "evidence"
     
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You mean there aren't giant willow forests being harvested for my anadin? Disappoint.

    The point stands though, right? You can't say 'oh, it's just natural medicine' when many medicines are as natural as tree bark.
     

Share This Page