don jin ki bub

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by doors, Dec 11, 2005.

  1. ember

    ember Valued Member

    I can't remember KJN Harmon mentioning any preferred time of day for the exercises. PSBN David recommends doing positions 1 and/or 2 right before going to bed.

    I also remember one time at black belt testing they had us finish practice with several of the positions, teaching 1-4 for those who didn't know them.

    Another thing PSBN David said: From the Eastern perspective, doing Ki Cho Cha Gi at the end of practice helps re-align the energies shaken up by all the movement. Apparently the ki breathing meditations have a similar effect.

    I like doing the ki breathing in the morning, because it seems to help keep me grounded & centered throughout the day. I've done them at night too, but to me the order seems wrong for that - it's a little annoying to go from lying down to sitting up, only to be going to sleep afterward.
  2. Silentmonk

    Silentmonk The Blue Donkster!!

    Not very well, couldn't get my breathing right underwater lol :D
  3. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    Positions 1 and 2 before bed make a lot of sense.

    We'll often bookend classes with position 5. I find it's a good thing at the start, to help you clear your mind and center yourself. And I find it can be good at the end to help you go over what you just did.

    Hrm... never heard that one, but we have been encouraged to do the Ki Cho Jah Ki exercises after any particularly hard class... if you're breathing hard at the end of the class/test, it's good to do them to get things back in sync.

    Sometimes tho it's tough... you're body is wanting air, and then you go and hold your breath. :rolleyes:

    That's a good point. I was told the purpose of the different positions is that it puts the meridians in different positions to stimulate ki flow. So I'd wonder... what if you did then backwards (12 to 1), especially before bed? Thus working from that sitting up into the lying down position, and then drifting off to sleep? I wonder about that.
  4. doors

    doors Valued Member

    My instructor told me doing them at different times of day gives you diffirent benefits. If you had a hard day of training and really worked your muscles You should do it at night so you won't be sore the next day beacuse it oxyginates your body. and If you do them in the morning you will still be sore but your body will be more energized for the rest of the day. Which I think makes sense.
  5. KSW_Martley

    KSW_Martley Valued Member

    There were people testing for black belt who didn't know #1-4? :Alien:
  6. ember

    ember Valued Member

    This was like my second test, and I think it was a group of people with 2 and 3 stripes.

    I learned the exercises in my first seminar. If they'd never been to seminar, and weren't part of extra classes like the Black Belt Club, it is possible that they hadn't seen them yet.

    PSBN has pointed out several times that the Kuk Sool curriculum is huge, it's very difficult to cover everything. I don't think we've done the tora soogi techniques in my classes for more than a year.

  7. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    12 exercises

    these 12 are the second step in the ki training process and i believe are called ki yu and are virtually usless with out the first step which is called ton-nup

    i think ki-yu is analogus to what is called grand circulation in chi gong
    ton up is analogus to small circulation which is the prerequisite for grand circulation

    i think small circulation is the controlled movement of ki throught the governing and conception meridians to the point that it is a full and thriving resivoir of energy, only then can the grand circulation occur since it comes from the small circ where the ki is guided through the entire 12 meridians i.e the 12 positions. The whole process take at least a few years of constant practice or more
  8. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Training Martial Arts without ki training, is like painting without using any paint. you go through the motions, the brush is sliding across the wall (ie the physical training/wea gong), you "painted". But in the end, there is no paint on the wall.....nothing got done. :cry: KSN has been telling people to ki train for decades and he asks everyone at the seminars " you can do it?" and everyone in lockstep obligingly answers "yes sir" but no one really means it. they answer because they are supposed to out of "respect or etiquette" (really false sincerity to appease thier seniors and appear to be a "good Student") , not because they really understand or mean to follow through by actually training. So he comes back next year and does it all over again ad nauseum... after 15 years or so everyone complains that the seminar is always the same or he teaches less. and who can really blame him. Why teach step 2 when no one has done step 1? I hope every one makes a real effort, it is difficult, but your results will be directly proportional to your consistency and effort. and it isn't easy!
  9. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 3, 2006
  10. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    esoteric |?es??terik| adjective intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

    by definition, it is esoteric, as is martial arts, and ksw.

    Well neither do i, because ki training does not require a leap of faith to be real. I haven't had a heart attack but I know they exsist even though I haven't experienced it first hand. this doesn't require faith or belief. it just is. westerners have a hard time understanding ki because thay assume requires belief and the media has pre-framed us to think of it as a mysitical type of thing. and that is the um/yang of MA in the media. lots of exposure but much of it is sensationilized to the unreal extremes. resulting in lots of awareness but inacurrate perceptions.

    everyone has ki but few have developed the ability to sense it within themselves. Since developing that ability is time consuming and difficult, it is easier to just blow it off and say "i don't believe in that stuff, ill just kick a$$ and thats enough". well ok but where is the mastery in that? Mike Tyson can kick a$$ but I don't necessarily see him as the right model to emulate.

    Ki training increases the efficency of oxygen exchange in your alveoli, in some cases it lowers your BP. it help you lower your resting heart rate, it enriches most fluids in the body. it requires that you control your thoughts. it can increase your sexual stamina :D . it is transparent over your hyung (actually your hyung is based on it). if you ki train correctly you can "feel"when you are in the right position during hyung.
  11. Mung Kee

    Mung Kee Valued Member

    so how do we train ton-nup? I've never heard of it. I've been thinking more and more about ki training and starting to train this, however I don't want to be wasting unnecessary time/effort doing ki-yu when I first need to be training ton-nup!!

    Has anyone been shown specific exercises for this?
  12. ember

    ember Valued Member

    I suppose I should have called it the more mundane aspects. I tend to think of esoteric as magical, and yes the media overdoes it.

    To paraphrase Shepherd Book in Serenity, "It doesn't matter what you believe, just that you believe in something."

    The main reason I brought up belief is in case the disbelief is being used as an excuse not to practice. There are some very visible benefits to a person having a regular, daily, breathing practice... and it can be very obvious when people don't practice.

    I could even venture to say that it is very obvious when I forget to practice :eek: :)

    As for the benefits, :Angel:
  13. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Ton up is not a "set" of exercises it is the breathing skill that is a pre-requisite for ki-yu.

    Excuses are like armpits, everybody has a couple and they all stink.
    Personally , i think that make it easier as it removes some who are unwilling to learn anyway.. why waste time teaching it to them. "people should be taught according to thier ability to learn" I would never waste my time with this on someone who is not able, for whatever reason, to learn it.
  14. KoreanWarrior

    KoreanWarrior Valued Member

    I think Kuk Sa Nim shows the 12 positions because they are rather safe to do on your own.
    AS far as the small orbit goes, yes that is the first step. Do a google on Microcosmic Orbit and tons of stuff should come up.

    Ki training must be difficult so few people have strong ki. I think one of the problems is you must have faith in the training and continue it for many years. Its a slow process like everything else but because its not punching and kicking people loose interest quickly.
  15. swntzu

    swntzu has left MAP for a bit

    I always thought that the concepts of Ki and Chi were very similar if not identical.
  16. KoreanWarrior

    KoreanWarrior Valued Member

    They are its just Chi is Chinese name and Ki is Korean and Japanese name for the same thing.
  17. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Agreed, except for the faith part, maybe trust your teacher is the way I would put it. I would, as a student , have a hard time with the Idea of having to "have faith". Sounds too religious/cultish.

    KW your'e right ,,the 12 positions also look like what people would expect them to be so it is accepted. Most people are in "fantasy" mode when they do MA and the 12 positions reinforces/fulfills that. Ton up does not have that same appeal.

    your also right that people lose interest quickly due to the fact that it seems like nothing is happening. not enough patience and perserverence.
  18. Silentmonk

    Silentmonk The Blue Donkster!!

    So if it is a skill there must be a way to break it down to learn it????? Small steps etc either that or you just discover it one day, don't realise you have and walk past?????

    What can we do to start developing this skill. I.e what ways can we build up from no idea or concept of this to begin to understand it. All Mung Kee is asking for is how to build the foundations of his house before he gets the second floor on it and it falls down. So therefore there must be exercises you can do to perfect that type of breathing skill????????

    If not can someone just explain the concept to us,because I'm as in the dark I think??? which worries me a little!!!!!! :eek:
  19. ember

    ember Valued Member

    It is, and there are. I think he's "just" talking about lower abdominal breathing. When you're in position 1, the hand below the navel should rise before the hand above the navel.

    Here's one book that I think I found helpful. I'd have to check my home library to be sure:
    "The Art of Breathing", by Nancy Zi.
  20. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Calm down already. you already probably know what to do, you just don't realise it. the breathing skill in the 12 positions is the what you are after. if you simply sit in # 5 position (palms down) and focus on the breathing instead of the hand positions, (which IMNSHO garner way too much of your attention) you may just achieve something. I think you should follow KW's advice and do a little simple reasearch and you will be surprised how simple yet incredibly difficult this is.

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