DOMS

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness...or at least thats what I think I keep getting lol.

I have recently made a switch in the number of times I attend my kung fu class (from 3x a week to once a week) because I swimming everyday after school.

Yesterday and last week (Saturday) were the first time I have experienced a great sorness in my quads, butt, hamstring, and a little in my inner thighs in a long time.

I love Kung Fu, but I can't keep going every Saturday and feel like its a struggle to sit in a chair the next day.

It was hard to keep on getting up after sitting down in Church today lol.

My question is, How do I decrease or get rid of the soreness?


I thought about it and came up with a few things:

1. Stretch after exercise and cool down (never tried it, but I doubt it will have a significant effect on my leg soreness the next day)

2. Go more often. I remember a friend in swimming tell me that if I got a charlie horse in my calf, it is always good to go swimming the next day because it will actually help with the cramp.
I don't know if this applies to my kung fu, but if I go more often, will it help with the soreness issue?

3. Build up more strength in my legs. This has been a big thought for me from the last 2 months. By building up more strength in my legs it will make normal positions (ie. horse stance) much easier, but I don't know if it will help with the endurance aspect with my training or even the terrible soreness i've been getting after practice lately.



Don't get me wrong here. I'm not a wuss, I've felt this a lot in the past and from past experieces the solution was to grind it out and plow through the pain.

That, I have painfully learned, leads to overtrainning (or more specifically over reaching).

And after 3 years I have started to become aware and afraid of training too hard. The days of grinding it out has molded my character, but for my personel progress I believe that I have to train smarter rather than harder.

I don't get DOMS after swimming (even though we swim a total of roughly 3 miles a day at varying speeds and strokes), but I do feel tired. Which I interpret as a good feeling to have after any practice.


Any advice would be appreciated.

 

I can understand why you would think stretching wouldn't help much. But it's surprising just how much stretching does. It turns bulk muscle into lean muscle (lean muscle heals much more quickly than bulk muscle and it's harder to tear up). It will cause your muscles to relax after exercising. And it will prepare your muscles for exercise. Rather than just stretch after your sessions, I recommend stretching both before and after.

 

Whats the difference between bulk muscle & lean muscle & how does bulk muscle turn into lean muscle when stretching?

 

Actually, 'bulk muscle' probly isn't the right term, but I don't know what the other kind of muscle is so that's what I refer to it as by habit. But basically there's 2 kinds of muscle.

Bulk muscle is generally larger. If you're a body builder or if you just want to look muscular as hell, then I guess you would want bulk muscle. Imagine you have a bunch of cords or something and they're all tangled up in a mess. All the knots and twisting back on itself makes it look like a large mass of cords. That's similar to bulk muscle.

Now imagine that all the cords are straightened out and folded up in a neat fashion. That's going to be similar to lean muscle. It's the same amount of muscle, but it takes up less space. Stretching is like pulling on the mass of cords until they straighten out.

While lean muscle isn't as impressive to look at, it's much more preferable for an athlete. Obviously, you'll be more flexible since less muscle gives you a bigger range of motion. Lean muscle is also a lot harder to tear up. Imagine the difference between hitting a baseball with a bat and hitting a rock with the same bat. Outside this context, you might think the rock is tougher than a baseball (it's a freaking rock!), but the rock will crack a lot faster than the baseball if you keep hitting it with the bat. Similarly, while bulk muscle looks tougher, lean muscle is more durable. Lean muscle also heals a lot quicker. Going back to the cord example, consider what would happen if you hit the cords with an axe. If you have to go back and tape them up, the nicely set up cords would be much easier to put back together. For the mess of cords, you would have to go and find out which cord connected to which one as the 2 sides of each cut might be far away from each other now.

 

I quote from wikipedia:

"Types of hypertrophy

There are two different types of muscular hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofibrillar hypertrophy. During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength. During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, comprised of the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle"

I am actually more myofibrilliar than sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, but discussing that doesnt really answer my questions on DOMS.

Well it is true that having lean strong muscle rather than bulky weak (not all the time tho) muscle, I already know that thanks for the reminder tho

I am very flexible but one of my doubts in my first post was on whether
or not it is significantly effective to stretch/ cool down after practice.

 

If you are not used to a workout, DOMS will set in. That's it. Simple.

I work out 6 times a week. 5 weight lifting sessions, with heavy weights/low sets and also some lighter weight/higher reps. 3 long cardio sessions and normally two HIIT cardio. I also train in TKD 2-4 times a week depending on work.

My first BJJ class still kicked my butt and some serious DOMS set in for my back!

I am in excellent shape, but it is all about how you are using something. The only cure is time. If you continue at your current level of training you will get to a point where you are no longer breaking down the muscle (at least not to the same extent) and you will not feel DOMS.

Then, the day you decide to push yourself above and beyond....it will be back.

You cannot train to where you are ready for absolutely everything and anything and never get DOMS again. Feel the burn and love it.

 

BTW: in regards to stretching....static? is that what you are referring too? If so a quick search will reveal some interesting info on that topic!

It is NOT best to stretch before sometimes....and sometimes it IS best. All depends on what your goals are. ALWAYS STRETCH AFTER EXERCISE!!!!!
Before:
1) never stretch a 'cold' muscle. Always preform some sort of cardio warm-up.
2) Good for increasing balance and flexibility (stances could be here)

Not before:
1) if you are going for strength, by stretching prior you are temporarily lengthening the muscle and DECREASING how much load it can handle (your stances MIGHT fall into this) obviously not a good thing when trying to add muscle strength.
2) DO A WARM UP STILL!!! Just because you are not stretching does NOT mean to skip the warm up!!

After
1) by stretching after a rigorous exercise you will actually INCREASE your overall strength over a period of time (don't have the source handy, but if you want it I can get it)
2) Will help with soreness to an extent. NOT A MAGIC BULLET

Edit: listen to your body. if you are so sore that you can barely go up and down stairs, do you really think you should be training? You already know the answer and what can happen if you ignore it. I KNOW you don't want an injury.

 

Hey Custom Volusia,

"If you are not used to a workout, DOMS will set in. That's it. Simple."

What you said makes a lot of sense in my situation because I stopped kung fu from my 2 week vacation (christmas) and my muscles probably regressed. They were also so use to my swimming workout that it couldn't handle the same load/exercise (since I haven't been doing kung fu regularly lately)

When you say:

"Not before:
1) if you are going for strength, by stretching prior you are temporarily lengthening the muscle and DECREASING how much load it can handle (your stances MIGHT fall into this) obviously not a good thing when trying to add muscle strength. "


R u saying that it is bad to do static stretches (after a warm up of course) b4 exercise and advocating doing it after exercise?

By stretching the muscle am I weakening how much my legs can handle in my horse stance?

In case I didn't mention, We practically do the same warm ups most of the time so I don't expect any increase in strength. If anything I would expect increase in endurance.

We do a lot of moving around in the horse stance (2 hour class), so the legs get the brute of the work.

thx for the reply btw

 

*Groan*

Doesn't anyone read the flexibility forum on MAP?

Kombatmaster777,

First we need to distinguish if the sensation you are experiencing following your workouts is DOMS or an injury. DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) pronounces itself 24-72 hours after exercising and usually subsides within 2-5 days after it makes itself known. Most often it hits its peak by the 2nd or 3rd day. An injury such as a muscle tear or ligament rupture is often felt immediately and the pain can be excrutiating.

DOMS is often experienced when you make a sudden switch in your existing training workload. This change can either be an increase or decrease in load or frequency. Seeing as you admit to recently changing your workouts, I would not be surprised to see some DOMS for a brief period. Also, you are experiencing discomfort in more than one location, which is another indicator of DOMS.

The cure to DOMS: complete and total rest. Some experts believe you should rest a day, then do a light workout the next day (2 days after experiencing DOMS). But I prefer to just wait it out.

DOMS is NOT caused by lactic acid buildup. Lactic acid disperses fairly rapidly and so cannot be responsible for discomfort that is felt so long after a workout has ceased. When you workout, you cause microtears in your muscles. The discomfort you feel is actually the reinforcement process (muscle hypertrophy). The cells, as they rebuild, swell in their fascia and put pressure on nerves and arteries, causing the sensation of pain.

NEVER do any type of stretching when you have DOMS. This includes dynamic, relaxed and isometric. You will do nothing to speed up your recovery; in fact, you can compound the problem further.

This is correct. Relaxed stretches should come at the end of your workout. But you should not work out or even stretch when you are sore, for the reasons outlined above.

Train within your limits. If you do too much, too often, you will get sore again.

Bingo

An indication you are working within capacity in your swimming workouts, but workout outside of your existing capacity in your Kung Fu workouts. Something needs to change.

Dehitay,

This is probably the most retarded theory of exercise physiology I've ever heard

Stretching does not alter the consistency of muscle types. Strength training does. Train for power = bulk, train for endurance = lean.

The chances of a muscle tearing depends on its strength, not its size. A big muscle is not necessarily a strong muscle. Strength is relative. Recovery depends on rest and nutrition.

Stretching in the static sense (which is what I believe you're referring to) does NOT prepare muscles for exercise. If you want to know why, I suggest you go visit the flexibility forum.

Creative anatomy?

There are three classifications of muscle:
1) Skeletal
2) Cardiac
3) Smooth

Or are you talking about the three body types? The three body types (somatotypes) are as follows:
1) Ectomorphic - long and thing muscles/limbs and low fat storage.
2) Mesomorphic - large bones, solid torso, low fat levels, wide shoulders and narrow waist.
3) Endomorphic - high fat storage, wide waist and large bone structure.

Now you're talking about different types of strength training for different results. Go look at bodybuilding.com for some great resources on how to train for size, strength and endurance. But what's up with that explanation of muscular anatomy?

Custom Volusia,

You don't need to do a warm-up for relaxed stretches, or dynamic stretches for that matter. I explain why in the flexibility forum.

Correct (in a roundabout kind of way )

By up to 20% following a workout.

And right there, folks, is the million dollar answer!

Frodocious,

Good advice. As I stated earlier in my reply, recovery depends on rest and nutrition. Kombatmaster, it could be quite simply that you're not eating enough calories to counter the effects of your training.

Yes. Static stretches (of any kind) before dynamic movements (of any kind) are WRONG. If you need to do a static stretch to perform a movement properly then you are not ready for that movement.

No wonder you are sore. Roughly how much of your class involves sitting in the horse stance? If it's for most of the class, then I'd expect your DOMS to ease up in about 12 months or so...

 

Wise words Frodocious

Another point: do not take painkillers or anti-inflammatory medication during DOMS, unless you want to reduce your body's ability to repair itself. Not only can medication like ibuprofen suppress the reinforcement process, it can also lead you to think you have recovered and train again, when in fact you are still recovering and need to rest.

 

Sigh, this is why this should be in H+F

Complications aside what you need to know is:
1 - Warmup before exercise and cooldown afterwards - this entails warmup exercises like starjumps, burpees, light jogging and slight stretching before and then slow exercises and deeper static stretching afterwards.

2 - DOMS is typically caused by overwork or lack of muscle recovery - the first being a problem of physical weakness and the second of dietary weakness. In either case it is a good idea to improve your diet, get a bit more protein and more vitamins (this means tuna sandwich, vegetables etc.).

If you are doing lots of horse stance you need to either go to a decent martial arts school or do some weighted pistols to make things easier.

 

Whoa, hold up. A warm-up should consist of basic, non-taxing exercises such as marching, jogging or jumping rope until the body is warm. It should not include exercises such as starjumps (aka Jumping Jacks, which have no place in any workout) or burpees. You should never do static stretching in the warm-up or before any type of dynamic movement.

Don't forget to prescribe rest if you offer advice regarding recovery

Focusing on the horse stance is an indication the OP is already at a decent martial arts school. Too many new-age schools don't concentrate enough on stance work, and as such they have limited strength and sloppy footwork. And prescribing weighted pistol (single-leg) squats when the OP is suffering DOMS just from doing horse stance is wrong. He should follow this order (if he wishes to do pistols with additional weight):

1. Practice horse stance until he no longer suffers DOMS
2. Practice horse stance holding weight (e.g. hold dumbbells in the horse stance position for several sets of 30-seconds)
3. Practice double-leg bodyweight squats until he can do a single set of 200 without DOMS
4. Practice double-leg squats with additional resistance (barbell or dumbbells) until he can do 10 with his own weight on the bar/dumbbell.
5. Practice single-leg (pistol) squats without additional resistance until he can do 50 on each leg continuously without DOMS

 

A break like that will do it. Though as superfoot says you do need to make sure it IS DOMS, but based on this it does sound like it too me.

Based on this....sounds like you should be stretching prior. This falls into the endurance portion (which I should've included in my BEFORE responses. It was late. My bad.). Or the reasons I put to stretch BEFORE.

If you are going to be doing some heavy weight lifting prior, then you can decrease your strength, but it doesn't sound like that is what you are doing. I don't do Kung-Fu so I can't just say, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Example: on Fridays is my legs day. I am currently around 450lbs on my leg press and about 225lbs for my squat. Prior to these exercises I do a WARM-UP but NOT stretching...something like a light jog.

As for prior stretching, I defer to Superfoot. He knows more about that then I do. Though he did agree with what I said, so that's cool for me!!

Except the 'cold' muscle thing...but like I said, I defer to him.

 

Moved to H&F.

Release the hounds...

 

Good point.

Apparently a fever alters our perception of pain (we notice it more), which further complicates the matter.

Edit - can anyone point me in the direction of the thread advising on training whilst ill?
I can't seem to shift a cold that I've got and hate missing training...

 

Wow, thanks guys.

I actually learned some valueable things from this thread.

I'm gonna list them and have you guys confirm them tho:

1. Even after a warm up, one shouldn't do static stretches (should one stretch at all?) before practice (assuming its dynamic work). But rather they should do it after practice for strength and flexibility gains as a part of one's cool down.

2. Drinking protein after a workout really helps (I do that sometimes, but I didnt know y. Thanks for confirming that Frodicious)

3. Do not take painkillers or anti-inflammatory medication during DOMS, unless you want to reduce your body's ability to repair itself.

4. DOMS is often experienced when you make a sudden switch in your existing training workload.

5. The cure to DOMS: complete and total rest. (I kinda figured lol)

6. DOMS is NOT caused by lactic acid buildup.

7. NEVER do any type of stretching when you have DOMS.

8. You don't need to do a warm-up for relaxed stretches, or dynamic stretches

9. If you are going for strength, by stretching prior you are temporarily lengthening the muscle and DECREASING how much load it can handle (your stances MIGHT fall into this) obviously not a good thing when trying to add muscle strength.

Thats basically what I took from everybody's posts. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of them.

It's funny you should say that static stretching before practice is bad because thats how I gained my flexibility.

Of course it went slow (1.5 years for a front split both sides), but stretching before our warmups is what we always do in class. In fact, no one really warms up before stretching in our class and they all go straight into static stretches, then the teacher tells us to line up and we do our warm ups.

I know its bad to stretch w/o warming up, but now I find out its bad to stretch before any dynamic work. I'm SHOCKED:jawdrop:


In case anyone is interested here is how my class goes:

1. Static stretch w/o warmup
2. Class lines up (we breathe in) and we drop to a horse stance
3. We do punches in the horse stance for a while, then go to bow and arrow stance both sides and back to horse. 15 minutes
4. We begin to add movement to our exercise by moving around in the horse stance. THis goes on for about 25 minutes give or take a few.
5. 2 min break
6. Has us sit in the horse stance for 3 minutes then matches us up to spar.
7. 20 min spar then he breaks us up and we work on technique (sometimes we spar some more) for 10-20 more minutes.
8. 2 min break
9. Do conditioning (arms, kicks, one legged stances) for about 20-30 minutes.
10. We get into the horse stance and we do sam sing for 5 minutes.
11. We line up to punch the bag.
12. Work on or perform (w/ drums) forms. The former can take up to 30 minutes.
13. Since its CNY we are doing a lot of lion dancing after class too (horse stance= leg killer)

And we r so tired that we dont even think of a warm down lol.


"Good advice. As I stated earlier in my reply, recovery depends on rest and nutrition. Kombatmaster, it could be quite simply that you're not eating enough calories to counter the effects of your training."

Oh don't you worry I'm eating PLENTY of food lol.


Thank you all for the replies.

-kombat

 

No wonder you get DOMS. That class structure is a mess!

 

"Even after a warm up, one shouldn't do static stretches (should one stretch at all?) before practice (assuming its dynamic work). But rather they should do it after practice for strength and flexibility gains as a part of one's cool down."

Interesting - this makes sense.

Although it goes against every TMA class I've been to...