Does the definition of Christian include Mormons?

How much does the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price add on top of the Old and New Testament? Does it change much of the Bibles fundamental message?

 

If I told you what it said, you wouldn't think I was serious.

 

But Mormonism didn't just reform Christianity or fix problems. It introduced a fundamentally different understanding of God and heaven. It brought in entirely new scriptures and history with no root in existing Judeo-Christian tradition. Mormonism is an establishment of something new, not a re-establishment of something old.

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with that. Every religion was once new. But I think the LDS church needs to be more honest with itself and with others: it's a new religion with new ideas. As long as Mormons insist they're just old-fashioned Christians, which they're obviously not, there will be a lot of people who don't take them seriously.

 

In a sense they are old fashioned Christians, in that the priesthood is rooted firmly in the family home (which I think is more of a control device than anything). Christians originally had to worship at home for fear of persecution. And Mormons have had their share of persecution.

However I feel they have ultimately failed in their attempt to rebuild the Christian church as it was supposed to be. Like all organised religions showing off power and wealth as well as controlling the congregation seems to be their primary concern. Which I would argue means they've missed the whole point of Christianity. Just like virtually every other form of the Christian church to come before them.

And talking about wealth. I can't shake the feeling the Mormon church was set up to make money for the top brass from day one.

 

And when the debate is about WHETHER Mormonism is a variety of Christianity, should a mod who is also a primary arguer in the debate put on his mod-hat and re-title the thread to have a title that assumes that his position is correct?

The title "Mormonism vs. Christianity" assumes that Mormonism isn't a form of Christianity, when that's the exact issue being debated in the thread. You wouldn't say "Protestantism vs. Christianity," would you? The re-titling of this thread, given the partisan nature of the new title, doesn't sit well with me.

 

I'd rather look at facts about the belief system than get into nebulous, subjective moral and ethical arguments. Fact: Mormons do not believe in an all-powerful, omnipresent God. Fact: Mormon scripture and belief contains much that has no root in any Judeo-Christian tradition.

It's not my place to judge people. Whether or not the LDS church is conducting itself the way I think a Christian church should is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Mormons hold beliefs that separate them significantly from Christianity. They are a separate religion because of clearly identifiable differences between Mormonism and Christianity.

 

Anecdotal at best but here in Asia we have a lot of Mormons who are on their missionary year (not sure what the official name is) - as well the elders of the church that live in Hong Kong year round. Somewhat telling is that they own big multi-million dollar plots in the city that their buildings sit on. Prime real estate - has to be some of the most expensive per square meter/foot in the world. That in itself isn't illegal or even perhaps unethical or immoral...

but what I always find irritating is that you'll see the Mormon kids in groups of two with their white shirt and their name badge and their book... they won't so much as nod or give you the time of day. Not even an acknowledgement. Most westerners can take a glance at each other and usually tell country of origin without too much error... when overseas it's customary when passing on the street to say hello or good day or what have you. Simple curteous acknowledgement. These kids? Not a chance. They have a strict interest only in chatting up Filipino domestic helpers (maids) I suspect it's probably because they're an easy mark to convert to Mormonism - as they're in Hong Kong, away from family, without many rights, very low income, usually lower education levels, lonely and culturally predisposed toward Christian sects (Iglesia De Christo etc.).

But the blonde haired blue eyed lot carrying the books... they can't so much as be bothered to nod and say hello to a fellow countryman. I find it rather pathetic. I've made a point of saying hello just to get a response... and either they see you approaching on the sidewalk and they avert their eyes (lol... I am a leper after all) or if you do catch and eye and say hello... they get all nervous and quickly make tracks after a mumbled hello. What is that? Are they so sheltered and isolated back in Utah or wherever they come from that they simply have zero social skills? It's really very strange.

 

^^^ That surprises me. The missionary pairs in Medford (just as you describe, young kids in white shirts, black pants, in pairs on bicycles) are super-friendly. And not just when they come to the door...if you're in your driveway unloading your car while they go bicycling by, they'll just say hi as they pass.

 

Yeah mileage may vary... I find it a bit strange to be honest. Maybe they are in culture shock at being in China and not speaking Chinese so they aren't sure how to react. Maybe they are so tuned into chatting up Filipinas that their heads are elsewhere. But it always strikes me because they own a big building in one of the most expensive districts in town... I walk by it everyday on my way to my clients... I see the elders out on the sidewalk quite often... and they're the same. Not a nod, not a hello, not a tip of the hat... nothing. Like you are transparent. I find that really odd given that most Americans in that age group usually are very gregarious and especially from the midwest they'll say howdy or hello or g'day or something. But it's always left me puzzled.

Maybe it's the hoody and the beanie that do it.... but naw because I see them when I'm in a suit as well. Maybe it's just Hong Kong as a fast paced city makes people hustle. Dunno. Anyhow. Just an observation.

 

Technically it's even simpler than that - by the standards of most Christian churches there is one, and only one, requirement to be considered Christian - that you have been baptised. Among the three major churches (Anglican, Orthodox and Catholic) you can change membership freely. Coming from another Christian faith which practises Baptism (at least in the case of the Anglicans) you merely need to be confirmed to be an Anglican Christian.

As this requirement of confirmation, and not the more stringent requirement of re-baptism applies to Mormons, it would be safe to say that the Church of England considers Mormons to be Christians.

Have to agree. I don't think Mormonism specifically is even required in the title any more, as we've wandered away from it. Maybe 'what makes a Christian?'

 

Not completely true. I am a non-member. My wife and her family are all Mormon. We have quite a few couples and families in our ward like that. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at the lack of pressure to convert. The underlying idea is generally that people have "free agency" and can decide if they wish. All regular meetings and classes are open to me and I can participate (except in a few specific cases).

I don't know how this translates across the entire world but from the branches and wards I've visited (across New York State and in Canada), that's my experience.

 

I'm firmly with Mitlov here... and I think the reason people are getting bent out of shape over his position is they are hung up on their own religious beliefs rather than considering the issue more objectively.

The question of what constitutes a 'Christian' is entirely dependent on what definition of Christianity you are using. So like aikimac if you are using something like acceptance of the Nicene Creed or the Trinity as the definition then obviously Mormons are not going to fit it. However, if you use a broader definition such as 'a tradition primarily focused on veneration of Jesus Christ' then Mormonism will easily fit the category. Mormonism is clearly an off-shoot from more mainstream Christianity (or in negative terms a cult/sect) and from a sociological perspective it would quite likely fall into a categorisation like 'Christian sect'.

Mitlov's point isn't crazy either he is making the very valid point that many Christians, regardless of their church's official doctrine, recognise the LDS as Christians. Religions are social phenomena so social perception is important. Protestants groups in their earliest beginnings were also defined as heretical/non-Christian and yet today they are recognised as an important strand of Christianity so obviously definitions can change and while doctrines are important they are not the be all and end all.

 

See this is where I think things get silly (not aimed at you OwlMAtt, aimed at the entire topic).

Mormons believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost and follow the 10 commandments and the holy scriptures (Old Testament, New Testament + the book of Mormon). If there is a question of what they should be doing, they refer to the SCRIPTURES for guidance. To me, that makes them Christians.

Mormons spend a lot of time learning the scriptures. Aikimac's earlier comment how little Christians tend to know about their religion does NOT apply to Mormons. They don't need an "easy summary" like the Nicene Creed to memorize - they know the scriptures.

On Sundays, Mormons usually have 3 hours of classes - the first hour is the sacrament and speakers from the congregation. Second hour is a scripture study class run by a member and the third hour is a continuation of the topic in separate age/gender groups. Kids and Youths have their own classes. There is no paid priests and they get rotated - every member has to be ready to take up any position in the church. As such, they all very well read in the scriptures and doctrine.

 

Fun fact: in a recent Pew Research Poll assessing knowledge of world religions among different religious demographics in the United States, the three demographic groups that answered the most questions correctly were atheists, Jews, and Mormons.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1745/re...erica-survey-atheists-agnostics-score-highest

 

I love my Jesus can beat up your Jesus threads. They make me smile.

 

Men created God so they will have something to worship in order to satisfy they "slavery nature - I'm a bad person, I have too much sin, and I need to be punished".

 

Not my experience. I was told quite plainly if our love was true then I'd convert by the Gestapo who ambush visitors to the temple in Salt Lake City. And there was a lot of pressure from the family as well. It was abundantly clear they did not approve.

 

I disagree.

I still think that using the "versus" creates an avoidable spirit of argument and opens the door for a flame fest. I would also second the notion another poster put forth about a "moderator" choosing and supporting a title that backs his opinion while other posters are saying might just be offensive.

And, with the heavy warning in the TOS about religious posts, I'd really prefer a less contentious title. Am I offended by the topic implying that Mormons are not Christians (again the use of the word "versus" implies separation, a side taken by only one half of the argument)? Yeah, I guess I am.

Would you consider changing the title to something less offensive, please?

Yep - I did.