Does size always matter in a street fight?

I see your points 47MartialMan. I'm not sure if we are agreeing or not.

I consider much of preparation and training to be just changing the odds to make them better in my favor when the times come when I need them. Nothing is for certain.

I do not agree that people can always assess the use of a weapon. Sure we are taught to look at the hands and if we can see space between the fingers. This isn't always going to happen, even in bright daylight, let alone low light conditions and conditions of multiple attackers and ambushes. In fact, I was training with a person years back that had been attacked by a person with a knife. He told me that he thought he was being punched, it wasn't until he had been hit a few times that he realized it wasn't a punch but a knife. Luckily he fended off the attacker and survived.

There is little reason to train to put your elbows up, except real close in or in situations where you are giving up (or pretending to surrender). In general, your elbows shield areas like your liver, floating ribs... your forearm ribs, armpit, throat... and above where the forearms cover, you can use your hands with evasion.

As for elbows being used against someone taller... what exactly can you teach in the 15 minutes of SD training? Not a lot of actual technique that they will remember. The use of elbows is an art to itself. You have good pivot points and use of the legs for some very close in and powerful elbows. If someone is too tall, and you aren't inclined to jump up, there are elbow strikes that will bring the enemy down, allowing you to follow up with elbow to the head.

 

Does size in a street fight matter? Yes /thread.

 

Therefore, are you saying that elbow strikes should or should not be used?

And per someone being tall, I was applying this to females using elbows against taller males

 

Not to derail the thread again, but I tend to agree with saved in blood regarding the violence we will see in the future.

I think the types of violence we will see will be different. From a wild west shoot out , or assaults in person to more bombings, large scale shootouts, poisonings etc. These are the sad side effects of (IMO) overly medicated societies, technological advancements etc.

In the old days you could have a punch up and call it a day. Unless you really went over board and purposely beat a downed man or did some bizarre damage, the cops wouldn't even arrest you or maybe not even have been called in the first place. FFW a few years and not only was it an arrestable offense, but the police in most cases (at least in most US jurisdictions) had to arrest someone, they could not leave a situation without removing one of the combatants. FFW further and law suites were huge with even getting slapped people were threatening law suits...FFW further to even yelling to loudly or coming forward to someone can be interpreted as an assault. All a bit silly but you can see now how when we expand the definition of what was an assault , we also create more and more instances where cops are called to a situation that in the past would have been laughable...leaving less time for more important police work..

 

@ 47 Martial Man - I agree with what you're saying. I think to me the best summary for any sort of training, is that you train to enhance your natural abilities. Of course working off of weaknesses is what creates learning and discipline in a martial artist, but to give the strong back bone of basic training necessities a smaller shorter combatant, (most women) should first learn the bare essentials..the groin strikes, being illusive, using eyes and ears and other evasive tactics before ever attempting to engage an attacker.

For men..well, If you're built like a mack truck, you don't need to go around training like a porsche.

 

Elbow strikes should be used, but only when too close to use the hands. This requires a change which pivot points are used. For a long ranged elbow strike, like a slicing elbow used in clinching range, the pivot point is closer to the wrist and the attack vector is more of an arc. However, for close in elbows, the pivot point is closer to the middle of the forearm.

For close in elbows, if you were in clinching range, you would have to still move in closer to use these elbows. The distance for these elbows is only a few inches, like if someone grabbed you from behind with their arm around over your shoulder (but not so tight that you do not have some wiggle room).

In regards to using elbows to protect yourself (protect vitals). The range of the elbow goes from hip to armpit. If the elbow is being used as a shield, there is not many times it should be outside this range, IMHO.

For teaching elbows to people that are smaller against taller opponents, remember I'm talking about using elbows when only inches from the opponent. The best elbows for hitting something taller go straight up using the legs, not the arm for power. For someone putting their arms around you from behind, you drop your weight down just a bit, one hand guards high, the other pinches the inside of the thigh or hammer fists the groin, or rips the testicles (these are just examples). After doing this to create some space, you drop your weight by slightly leaning forward and squatting/horse stance/widening your base (whatever floats your boat) and slightly sliding the foot back between the opponent's legs. You then drive your elbow up and slightly back into their chin. The power is not from the upper body, the upper body forms a structure that is strong... the power from the elbow is from the legs as you drive up as if lifting the opponent up (with the tip of your elbow under their chin) using your legs. From there you follow up with whatever comes, making sure that you break out of the grab.

From the front, opponent grabs you in bear hug. Strike down on any of the hip pressure points to create enough space to knee them in the groin. Step between the legs, drive a short elbow into their solar plexus, drop down into a horse stance. Drive the elbow straight up under the chin using the legs for the power as if lifting the opponent up with the elbow under their chin. From there you got eye rakes and face shredding. Follow up with whatever comes, making sure that you break the hold.

 

RW, whereas I like reading your recent post and thorougfhly understand, such practices most, esp wpmen will never do becuase of the "uncomfortabiity" factor as well as the confusion upon actual confrontation

As for taller, it is still hard to reach no matter.

Elbows can be used against body shots, exp those upon a grabbing ("hugging") opponent

 

Liked your post

except-

Groin strikes are not nearly as successful as other methods IMHO

 

Well of course its contextual. But for a slightly built woman, who let's assume is maybe not so aggressive and prepared mentally or physically for a fight you would of course recomend

1. A Gun - along with some training - to include the mental preparation to actually pull it and use it.

2. Pepper spray / CS gas - again this can be tricky and might not always work as well as you need, but often will blind and choke up the attacker long enough for the woman to run away. Even with this method, some mental prep needs to be done so that the resolve to spray quickly and run is there. No time for thinking it through 2-3 times or any extraneous drama.

3. Kick to the nuts - Not a sure fire thing, then again nothing is. If you can land a good nut shot and then retreat, it will possibly drop and at the least really slow down attackers. The problem is that you have little window of time where the attacker can still come forward and hit or grab, which can be very bad news for a smaller / weaker person.

 

I figured you understood, I just wasn't sure.

When it comes to something like women's self defense, there are some areas of general knowledge and experience that are mostly helpful for all. Such as learning the local laws, criminal behaviors, criminal trends, awareness, best practices, etc.

When it comes to techniques, however, that to me is something to be handled on a case-by-case basis for the individual. If someone is wanting to use elbows, I'm going to show them what I consider to be the best and most practical use of elbows given the context. They can steal the knowledge, make adjustments to make it their own, or just leave it and move on... this is their choice.

That's all I'm doing here. Someone interested in elbows but put off because they can't seem to get them to work... well I'm going to present how I believe they should be done for most practical use... they can take it or leave it. I'm not trying to help everyone, just a few that might find what I say inspiring and useful.

 

Yeah, it's sort of the the movie Equilibrium, awesome movie too

 

As for #3, I have seen people fail at doing this. In fact, I have seen more from a "accident" esp sports or outdoor activities.

 

Somewhat agree.

I do, however, think it is absurd for someone to teach another a elbow head shot upon a much taller opponent, WITHOUT some other tactic or movement for the reach to be made.

I am TALKING about this SOMEWHAT:





THIS IS SOMEWHAT OK;

 

I talking about taking it a step further. It does not matter what elbow you use, make sure that the one you are using is done correctly. So many people teach elbow strikes that have very little understanding of proper pivot points and powerlines.

Why settle for garbage in, garbage out training?

 

Agree,.

As what I guess we are on the same page.

That said, I still stand behind that a elbow strike is most effective at a mid range than trying to go too high.

In other words, as I said, use other methods to bring the opponent in a position for better effectiveness and lesser leaving a opening on yourself

 

Makes sense. Accelerating an elbow backwards at the normal height means you can keep accelerating using large muscle groups. If you want to make the elbow move up towards head height, you use different (smaller muscles) which are not used to that kind of movement.

 

To accelerate an elbow upwards, you use the legs. It is a very powerful elbow strike.

That is if you can reach the target (as 47MartialMan is saying it isn't easy to reach a higher target)

Only slicing elbows used to cut someone use the smaller muscles and they are for clinching range. The most powerful elbows come closer than clinch, only inches from the target.

Edit: slicing elbows used at clinching range we teach for Muay Thai, but they are not power elbows, they are more for speed and cutting. I will try to find a video of a power rising elbow.

Edit 2: Okay here is a video of the power rising elbow to the front (not the one to the rear). Go to 2:42 (#2 elbow striking up). It is hard to see the leg power unless you are looking for it, because in the video he is showing more of a form with a step in. Listen to what he is saying... "straight up"... In self defense, you would not be taking the step in, but dropping down very close in and aligning the body, then coming straight up with the elbow. If you miss or hit, there is a eye rake and face shredding move that can follow.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk_mwm5tgCY"]Tai Chi Power Striking Taiji Fajin Training - YouTube[/ame]

 

KUDOS!

Going back some posts, the point I was trying to make is that some Self Defense Classes teach a high elbow strike to taller opponents (male)

That said courses are designed to teach without proper instruction on the method per legs, pivot, etc.

That I disagree with the PARTICULAR strike in said courses as well as for a tall opponent (unless there are accompanying methods to bring the opponet's head a tad lower and generate the power)

 

I was mostly playing devils advocate, but I agree with you that teaching something that doesn't work is not a good idea.

When I first learned the upward elbow to the rear, it was an elbow that fed off the movement of the previous technique. First came a slap to the groin, then grabbing the testicles, it was a ripping up. So the technique was actually a groin rip, the elbow was just the motion you made with your body to make the rip work. My instructor still teaches it this way and I pass on the knowledge. Of course a lot of these types of techniques were designed in tropical or warmer climates where people wore light clothing. They are not as practical in cooler climates where clothing is heavier.

In addition, not very many women or men are willing to grab someone's junk, even in a self-defense situation, let alone in training.

So now maybe you still have the slap to the groin but then it follows with the upward elbow to the rear. You have to take it to the next step and put someone in alive training with this elbow. Even though it is close range, because of the straight up primary vector, against someone your own height, it hits maybe only 50% of the time. If someone is taller, maybe it hits only 10% of the time. I include glancing blows and hits that have no effect in the misses.

So students have to learn that even high percentage stuff is low percentage in a real situation FOR THEM. They will hit a bunch of nothing. The upward elbow to the back is already low percentage, it is very low percentage against someone taller.

I use the back upper elbow to align the body for what comes next. Since it rises up with the power from the legs, it is easier to get the opponent to rise up too. Whether the elbow hits or misses, the student can then drop down, roll the shoulders, and slip under the armpit of the opponent.

So the rising elbow is part of the set up for a slip under the armpit escape.

Unfortunately, if elbows are not drilled as a complement to other movements, they become a one shot cannon. What is better is something like a 50 cal machine gun. Rapid effective hitting. With the cannon approach a student can build a mindset of what I call the "life preserver". When you put on a life preserver, you now feel safer to go in the water because the life preserver helps you to float. However, if you dive into the water feet first from any height, your head will go under water, even with the life preserver.

Some students think that with the life preserver, they are safe and their head will never go under water. That is a rude awaking to them when they go under, unprepared. The life preserver helps to float, it does not prevent the head from going under the water when you dive in.

Elbows are like that. A bit of a life preserver, but if you 100% rely on one to end a fight, you will not have any back up when it does not work fully. No to cannon mentality, yes to 50 cal machine gun, IMHO.

 

Personally we've never had issues with short course students (male or female) delivering effective backward elbows (whether high or low) with enough impact whenever we've put them under a bit of pressure with an armoured assailant.