Does ninjutsu work?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Grass hopper, Feb 15, 2013.

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  1. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    But not necessarily to talk clearly :hat:
     
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You can decide to live your life any way you see fit, if it is along these lines then fine. For me, whilst I am not there yet, I would rather take the approach that I am fully focused on my own development and supportive of others endeavors.

    I slip into the bashing a bit too much still, but am working on it.

    I think, if you take those 5 years in optometry and instead of using that as a license to bash people studying iridology you actually try to help people using your skill and are Ok that someone else took another path, you are doing more good for the world.

    The other extreme, using ridicule than opens up doors like - is your optometry school in the top 5 schools? Did you feed into it from a proper school? Did you get a scholarship or pay your way in? Optometry is the worst medicine, you could never be a neuroscientist etc etc.

    What you have is a world judged by others and your success is based on ridiculing or promoting others.

    I would rather a world where I strived to do the best by my understanding of what is right, and respected other people (of course it would be nice to be respected too, but that is just ego and insecurity talking).

    What I do hope though, is that if I could have a beer with a person who just put in as many hours as I do training as a hobby into anything else as a hobby that I could see beyond my own sense of self importance and appreciate what their journey was.
     
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Could you go back to the first question and tell me if the question actually matches the title of the thread?
     
  4. shinbushi

    shinbushi Reaver

    QUOTED for the TRUTH. Ronda is extremely bad ass. Big time Fan boy.
     
  5. shinbushi

    shinbushi Reaver

    Sulfa Bocce check my sig for the myths of street vs sport.
     
  6. Sulfa Bocce

    Sulfa Bocce Banned Banned

    I'd also like to apologize for my tone and content.

    I think both Kave and Mattt make excellent points.
     
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Which ones?
     
  8. Sulfa Bocce

    Sulfa Bocce Banned Banned

    Everyone deserves a certain amount of courtesy and respect, but some people are just idiots, and should be treated as such :D
     
  9. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    So, an apology and The Finger within a post of each other. Not bad.
     
  10. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    wow. i hope that's a sarcastic remark. if not...

    considering you can't or won't answer even basic questions about your background, yet seem to constantly make definitive statements (at least in your own mind), maybe you need to look in the mirror a bit more.
     
  11. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    I'm sorry for stating this, but he wouldn't hafta apologize if we weren't all such douche canoes. :p
     
  12. Highland Ninja

    Highland Ninja Valued Member

    I don't get a chance to post here often, but here's my two cents, for what it's worth.

    First, I've gotten into debates with people on more than one occasion, usually with MMA-types who simply despise the Bujinkan as well as any and all things in any way related to ninjutsu. It's almost a pathological hatred I see coming from them. And my response is always the same. If someone who insists that any of the X-kans don't work, if they insist Hatsumi is fake, then just go to Japan and kick his ass. Seriously. If they feel that intensely about the issue that they can't stop talking about it and feel compelled to insult, disrespect and make fun of everyone and anyone who practices any of the X-kans (especially Bujinkan), then what they need to do is go prove themselves and get it over with. Go challenge Hatsumi. They'll have to get thru Nagato first, of course. ;)

    I've gotten yelled at from moderators at other sites for saying this, but seriously - if a MMA practitioner has such angry feelings about it, he should go prove himself. If he manhandles Nagato, and then Hatsumi, he'll be world famous, plus he can have the pleasure of permanently disgracing and disproving the art he so despises. With some of these guys, I would think that would give them more satisfaction and pleasure than winning the Lottery! And yet no one does that. I wonder why? :rolleyes:

    Second, I trained in the Bujinkan before it became the Bujinkan. Back in the 80's, under many of the big names like Hayes and Malmstrom. But our main instructor was Roger Stebelton. And that man could hurt you in so many ways it wasn't funny. Many of us had extensive backgrounds in other arts (karate, kali, JKD, etc). But none of us could ever lay a hand on him. Oh yeah, we attacked him by surprise. We were resistant, and I mean hardcore resistant as in "no way am I gonna let him throw me/put that joint lock on me/send me flying across the room with a punch". And that resistance mattered about as much as the price of ice cubes in the Arctic, because inevitably we'd be sent flying across the room, or be stomped into the ground, or find ourselves tied up on painful (emphasis on PAIN) joint locks. Then someone came up with the bright idea :rolleyes: of attacking him 3-on-1 or 4-on-1. And we got even more pain for our efforts. And let me tell you, we tried!

    When we practiced amongst ourselves, it was always the goal to try the techniques on the biggest, strongest, most talented members of the class. I for one never cared about trying the techniques on someone new who was half my size. I wanted to try it against someone twice my size, who had more experience than me and who absolutely would not be compliant.

    When we trained with Roger Stebelton, there was no such thing as "compliant" training. Either you MADE the technique work, or the uke stood there looking at you as if you were dense.

    Oh, the memories are painful - bruises, sprains, contusions, abrasions - those were the rule of the day. If we didn't go home with a bruise or a cut or finger or nail prints embedded in the skin, we weren't training.

    When we practiced rolls, it was on a hard cement floor with a thin carpet. And that was where we started. We'd roll on gravel, cement, even down stone stairs (yeah, that felt good!). I was whacked so hard on top of the head with a shinai once trying a technique (incorrectly), that I thought I lost a tooth filling. When I was able to stand again, we kept practicing. We fought on hardwood floors, on cement floors, in forest preserves, in moving cars, and every conceivable place you might be attacked. In mud, in rain, in snow. In -50 degree wind chills (no exaggeration - one night it was -52 degrees F). Trying to fight 3 guys in waist-deep water who are trying to drown you is a lot of fun too, trust me on that!

    So back in the day, it certainly wasn't wussy training with compliant ukes. Some of the earliest stuff, like countering straight punches with ichimonji -if the uke's arm wasn't bruised or numb, we weren't doing it right. And I long ago lost count of how many times someone screwed up and got punched - hard - in the face. Bloody lips or noses? Weekly thing. No biggie.

    I don't know which Bujinkan dojos train like that anymore, but back in the day, that's how we did. And I know that myself and several other students ended up at various points in our lives in serious unarmed combat, and we're all still here to tell about it. And I can say that in each case, the attacker suffered an epiphany and re-thought his life (after regaining consciousness or getting patched up). So yes, it works. At least, as far as I've experienced it.

    An interesting side story, I met Shihan Nagato in Dayton when Soke Hatsumi came to America for a class. We were doing some hanbo stuff, and I had this octagonal hanbo that was made of very hard wood. It could easily cave in a 55 gallon steel drum. Just a beast of a piece of weaponry. Nagato came over to us and somehow we got into a discussion about not being impressed by weapons, as they can be overcome. Nagato had me brace myself, holding the hanbo in front of me in both hands. He slammed it with a shuto so hard that the damned thing shattered, and I went flying back about 6 ft. I believe a Japanese camera crew was filming there, so this may exist on tape somewhere. I'd love to see it! But any guy who can hit like that, that hard, faster than I could blink - I'll put him up against any MMA fighter any time!

    Ok, so my two cents became a buck fifty! :p
     
  13. gregtca

    gregtca Valued Member

    Interesting story , yes I trained hard in the 80's. here in AUS as well, but I was wondering as I'm 50 , and your age is listed as 37 ? So 1980 to 2013 is 33 years , mmmmmmm
     
  14. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Ninjer years are like dog years.
     
  15. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Wasn't that in the 70's?
     
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Stupid response.

    It does nothing towards addressing any of the problem you often see mentioned with certain ryu-ha and if they did trounce an elderly Japanese gentleman it would not invalidate the training found within the org.

    Why not deal with them yourself instead of relying on the general badassery of someone like Nagato Sensei?

    I feel Nagato Sensei could probably kick ass using interpretive dance. A system shows its strength through what Joe Bloggs can do. Take a cross section of your average Buj students and use them instead of training vicariously through your Shihan.

    And what is it with you guys just addressing the seniors of your org in that way?



    Again why not step up yourself?

    Expecting someone to go thousands of miles to engage in a match with the top people in your org is daft.

    Get them to your Dojo or meet them somewhere neutral and go at it.

    If so many had such extensive backgrounds then someone should be doing something. Either you weren't as skilled as you thought or there was a little bit of instructor student power play going on.

    See my above comments about teacher student interplay.

    How was this trained? What methodology?

    If uke is standing there watching you they are being compliant.

    Injury does not equal good or effective training.

    Sounds stupid. Good training includes levels of intensity and working so that you can train efficiently.

    Not as big a deal as you seem to think.

    Great you applied scenarios to your practice but what was the core methodology driving those?

    That's levels of contact not compliance and resistance.

    You can beat the hell out of each other and still train compliantly. In fact it is probably easier to belt each other when you do.

    Then you all failed at the initial point didn't you?

    That's not being derogatory towards you but if the above is true then you had to act as a result of failure.

    Why not put yourself up?

    Yes the top dogs are skilled but the important thing is what can your average joe do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  17. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I could kick an old Hatsumi's ass in a one-on-one fight, but what would it prove? He's an old man. Also, a fair fight is not what Ninjutsu is about. It's about surprise and having a weapon.


    So yeah, I will complain a lot if YOU claim Ninjutsu is better for self defence, or if somebody claims that Ninjutsu doesn't work in a cage because it's "too deadly".
     
  18. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    No offense, and I'm sure your strong young and tough, but I really really doubt that. In some sort of controlled fight, sure my money's on you ( mma 'throw down ' or what have you.
    In a real fight ? Lol, that old man would carve you up like a roast in a heart beat!

    That post from highland ninja, was odd ! Something made me instantly think of that post from the guy about Keith hawthorn remember. "I was fit, tree hundred old school push ups fit, blah blah" lol

    Sorry probably way off......

    Carry on...
     
  19. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    He's armed at all times, is he? That must take significant ninja skills given Japan's strict weapon laws.

    If Hatsumi gets a knife, why doesn't Chadderz get one as well? The old man still invincible in those circumstances? How about a gun for his assailant, make any difference?
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I don't think hatsie meant "carve" literally, nor do I think Chadderz meant anything beyond "beating the head man when he is old does not invalidate the system"

    I trained with a 5th Dan Bujinkan guy last weekend who came to train with me and Singh. He HAS trained in Japan under Hatsumi and Nagato and has taken the saki test and all the other things that mark him as having met the "real ninja" standard. He confirmed what I suspected all along...

    ...that the Bujinkan is a perfectly acceptable form of fighting.

    That's it. No surprises, no hyperbole and no hagiography of the top men. He did not think it the absolute best, but like me he doubts such a thing exists anyway. There were some distinctly "Bujinkan" movements in places, but these were nicely blended within his JKD matrix so that if you didn't know you wouldn't see them.

    Once again training method > all
     
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