Does ninjutsu work?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Grass hopper, Feb 15, 2013.

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  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Removing leg pickups and hampering grip fighting and newaza has taken judos breadth away, however its depth is still deeper then most people can handle.
     
  2. Sulfa Bocce

    Sulfa Bocce Banned Banned

    15.

    Everyone in my club chosen for nationals was around that age, 15-17.

    See sig.

    I've taught rooms full of grown men twice my age who had the same bias. In the 21st century age counts for very little when it comes to specialisations.

    Judo idealogy is great, like Kendo idealogy and Aikido idealogy, but they are all a very tiny subset of martial skills modified and altered to such a state that they no longer resemble the systems they were based on, and as such are fundamentally flawed.

    I can't even count the number of times I've seen very highly graded Iaidoka and other 'traditional' Japanese sword school practitioners who COULDN'T even draw a sword without almost cutting their arm off because they lacked a whole other dimension of kenjutsu which they never received from their schools because the school lacked the whole picture.

    Judo is a great sport and great for fitness, but it lacks the martial picture, and is thus nothing more than a sport for kids and sport's enthusiasts.

    Gets samey after 20 years compared to curriculums within the Bujinkan. It was fun before they started altering it to make it a more effective spectator sport.

    I mean, you don't suddenly turn all the chess pieces into pawns because spectators 'don't get it'. Watering down a sport to make it more fun to watch and easier to follow for laymen is like... like... WWE

    Yep, I said it. Welcome to Judo 2013.
     
  3. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    tell that to fedor or ronda.

    i think you can definitely make the case that modern judo rules need adjusting. but judo as "watered down" is a ridiculous assessment.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    So to draw your weapon safely you need to study Kenjutsu? :confused:


    What elements were missing? What ryu-ha was it?



    Btw why is Kendo fundamentally flawed?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  5. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Kendo is only fundamentally flawed in the eyes of those who have seen, drawn conclusions but never studied in great depth.
     
  6. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    This is true for most things I think
     
  7. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    Sato Kinbei was heard stating several times kendo should be known as" The way of the bamboo" and not the sword.

    I dont think he cared for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i would personally love to see a ninja step into a ring against ilias iliades. or, teddy riner. i'm just sayin', since judo's all "watered down" and all.
     
  9. Sulfa Bocce

    Sulfa Bocce Banned Banned

    To draw a sword safely you need to understand how the body moves. Iaijutsu is useless without taijutsu and kenjutsu. Too many idiots trying to draw swords with their arms, instead of their body.

    Most recently? A Japanese teacher acquaintance who claimed a yondan in Muso Shinden Ryu (or some offshoot). He seemed really knowledgeable and wanted to see my swords. I'm like "Hey! Japanese, Yondan, Iaidoka, no problem." ... boy how I was wrong. As he is drawing it out I can hear the blade cutting into the scabbard! He whips it out, swings it around a bit and almost stabs his hand before putting it back in. :bang:

    Never again. Shouldn't have let anyone touch my blades in the first place. Not the first time, but definitely the last.

    Kendo as a sport is perfect. Kendo as a style for teaching sword? Useless. Cutting at armour, hacking, overextending, shouting out targets, absolute focus on the opponent. Kendoka are fast, and lethal with a shinai, but replace the shinai with a sword or a bokken and they would be dead or maimed pretty quickly.

    Nitpicking, but all the gendai styles (Karate, Judo, Shorinji Kenpo, Kendo, Aikido) are nothing but sports with a very limited connection to 'martial' arts. Hence, why I call them combat sports.
     
  10. Dave76

    Dave76 Valued Member

    Wow, so anything after 1869 is a sport? That is a bold statement.
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Agreed, you can see a lot of them in the bad ninjutsu thread.

    So in what way will Kenjutsu help specifically in drawing in a safe manner?

    Keeping in mind that most if not all ryu tend to have a set of basic kata which help the student build their basics.

    Claimed? Some offshoot?

    Bit vague.

    What made you think he was knowledgable?




    There's the problem. You are pretty much using a strawman
     
  12. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    From the BKA website.

    In 1975 the All Japan Kendo Federation (AJKF) developed then published ‘The Concept and Purpose of Kendo’ which is reproduced below.

    Concept
    Kendo is a way to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana.

    Purpose
    To mold the mind and body.
    To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
    And through correct and rigid training,
    To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo.
    To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor.
    To associate with others with sincerity.
    And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

    Thus will one be able:
    To love ones country and society.
    To contribute to the development of culture
    And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award



    Just to clarify, are you saying you have twenty years of Judo experience, but when the rules started changed to ban certain throws (inside the last 5 years or so) you gave up competing? But you only competed as a junior?

    Either I'm missing something here or your making up your Background, so which one is it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    don't forget, he's only met five judoka he couldn't throw.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Gendai = 1869.

    Yet Hatsumi became Soke of his schools in 1958, And only after many years started teaching Budo Tai Jutsu, which would make both the Organisation of the Bujinkan, and the art 'Budo Taijutsu' Gendai and in your own words ' nothing but sports with a very limited connection to 'martial' arts'
     
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    According to this, You've been training in martial arts for Twenty years, and your in your mid Twenties. and you competed in judo at 15? But gave it up after they banned certain throws (direct leg grabs were banned in 2010.)
    And have ran your own Bujinkan Dojo?

    That timeline doesnt add up.


    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074708681&postcount=1

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074719190&postcount=1
     
  17. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    Ah but he started kicking in the womb, so it's actually over twenty years!
     
  18. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    A minor point here. You are wrong.

    You do not need to study kenjutsu to understand iai or viceversa.

    Relevance?

    More nonsense. I guess the learning of maai, kime, tenouchi, kihaku, fudoshin and general fukaku is useless then.

    Yes, but their kendo is awesome. ;)

    Comparing apples with oranges here. Utterly pointless comment. Kinda like saying "that Mike Tyson guy is pretty tasty with his fists, but put him in the Octagon and he ain't so good after all".

    Maaaan, never in the field of martial conflict was so much misunderstanding spewed to so many by so few.

    The good news is that this complete grasp of reality can be fixed with the liberal application of practice.
     
  19. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    I think you need to be careful with diminishing gendai arts. Sure, there are issues with these arts and how they developed when looking at fighting applications. On the other hand, much was preserved. For instance, there is a lot in Karata besides sparring competitions and if you have the right teacher this can be learned. Also, for a long time now, asides from military personnel, the only people who have been fighting a lot are the practitioners of these gendai arts. They practice fighting in a variety of situations, a lot of them possibly not lifelike, yet they do practice it. And a lot of them have been in proper fights. My first Karate teacher was taught Karate and Silat and got into a lot of fights when he was young, and this kind of knowledge was very useful for us as his students.

    Then on the other hand you have a large part of the Booj which can not fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Being a good fighter depends on the art you are taught, of course, but also on who your teacher is, what your attitude is (Hatsumi Sensei always writes about how frightening Takamatsu Sensei was, this real fighting spirit is not extremely common in the Booj) and most importantly, how you practice (with which intention and which intensity).

    Regards,

    Tom.
     
  20. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    This is an ineteresting point. Many people I see at Bujinkan classes and seminars have no interest in learning to use the techniques in a fight. They are there for something else. What that is I'm not really sure. But the Bujinkan has always attracted quite a few odd-bods. Different people want to take different things away from their training.

    I think this, causes some of the "floppy uke syndrome". Maybe they just think it's cool to be learning the art (even they maybe they are learning nothing as they are approaching it with the wrong midset).


    (They should be allowed to still train though. I am not proposing a cull! :evil:)


    Other arts images may attract only people who want to fight/compete and so they don't get the "casual interest people". Then again there are also alot of nutters. In a bad way.


    However...just because larpers and "new-agers" and others come along for the ride, does not mean the arts do not work, or that some Bujinkan (and other x-kan) people are not very able in a confrontation.

    Though those people are not found on youtube generally.

    For many reasons.
     
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