Does Fornication deplete Chi?

I'm pretty sure he can't believe the stuff he is saying either but does it count as feeding if the person trying to wind other people up is getting more wound up than they are? lol... now theres a riddle worthy of old thebike himself!

 

Hi CKava, I wasn't getting at anyone for talking to him, I just though he might go away if he was ignored, but obviously you should do what you think best

 

Abstaining from ejaculation is a tool to advance qigong and meditation training. The longer it's been, the stronger the qi feels. It's a good technique to use when trying to get over a plateau in qigong or meditation progress. In qigong and Yoga it is considered that by abstaining, the sexual energy can be raised to "nourish" the brain. When you "nourish" the brain, all kinds of interesting things happen, including feeling as if colors are brighter, feeling ecstatic, actually seeing colors when your eyes are closed and so on (there's a whole long progression of this on which I've only taken beginning steps--Buddhism, for example, has the "mundane world," "the world of colors" and then "the world of no colors"). What I think is actually happening is that you are taking advantage of an altered body "climate" to achieve something like increased oxygen to the brain (or something--what exactly is going on I'm not sure, but I'm certain blood and the oxygen, hormones, etc. it carries play a big role).

I think it's because, like breathing, our choice of when, how and how often we are sexually stimulated and ejaculate gives us a kind of "in" in terms of training our nervous, circulatory and endocrine systems. That is, normally, most bodily processes are not under our conscious control. For example, most people cannot, simply by thinking about it, increase or decrease the flow of blood to a specific area. However, breathing is under conscious control and can therefore be used as a tool to affect other processes not normally under conscious control. In this way, by thinking about it and breathing in a certain way, I can increase the flow of blood to my head, feet or hands at will.

Obviously, sexual desire, pleasure, release, etc. are intimately linked with our nervous and endocrine systems. Therefore, by choosing to not have sex, or to have sex but not ejaculate, we change the overall climate in the body. Not only does it change hormone secretion, but the whole body becomes more sensitive to sexual pleasure, the way the sense of smell becomes stronger when you're hungry. Since sexual pleasure is felt with the nervous system, we can use this state to affect the entire nervous system, training it to become accustomed to a higher overall level of sensitivity, increased fine motor control, etc.

When you ejaculate, you temporarily lose this favorable training "climate" and feel weaker, especially in the legs. Some TCMists interpreted this to mean you were actually weakening your overall constitution, but I think modern science has disproven this. It is true, however, that very frequent ejaculation will hinder your progress in qigong and meditation because the nervous system will just not be in a state conducive to making such progress. Still, it doesn't require that much self-denial if you're practicing an effective form of qigong. If you can keep it down to two or three times a week then that is plenty to make good progress, though you could probably make faster progress with longer bouts of abstention and probably could still make a little progress with more frequent sex. Of course, age plays a role too. Teenagers have such abundant hormones that just going a single day without is probably enough, while someone in their fifties might want to try for a week.

I realise a lot of this is my pseudo-science based on my anecdotal personal experience... but, for what it's worth...

 

That did not take long.

I find that ignorance on the internet is most frequently declared by people accusing those with knowledge of being trolls. Instead of being strong enough to admit they do not know something, or they do not understand something, ignorant people call the person with knowledge a troll.

You are only hurting yourself. By belittling me, you can convince yourself that there is no reason to listen to me. No reason to learn what I have to say. That hurts you, not me. You are the one who is ignorant, the one who lacks knowledge about some subject. The game of belittlement you are playing is a child's game.
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For those who are interested in the title of this thread, "Does Fornication deplete Chi", or the statement "Fornication causes physical damage to the body", you can view the following video if you like.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xT1IV9ibkI"]YouTube[/ame]

This video is discovery channel video of an octopus. Just watch the octopus and see what it does, how it moves, what it looks like etc. Keep in mind the title of this thread and the things you have read in this discussion as you watch the video. Once some time has passed to allow everyone to view the video, I will have something to say.

I apologize for the abusive and derisive people in this thread. I cannot control their posting and they cannot control themselves. If you scroll past their posts, it really doesn't matter what they say. We can continue this conversation in a meaningful and educational way.

 

No, it's really pretty simple; we call people who claim to have some great arcane knowledge or that make absurdly ignorant claims fools, morons, delusional etc...

When they don't get the hint and keep posting in the same manner or pretend to be something other then what they are we call them trolls.

If you have proof of what you claim, bring it. I'm sure those in the medical field would love to be the first to bring this new information to the attention of their superiors.

 

Are you volunteering?

 

What did that video have to do with this thread?

Seek out a mental healthcare specialist.

 

Do people ever think about how they look to others?

bcullen - we call people who claim to have some great arcane knowledge or that make absurdly ignorant claims fools, morons, delusional etc.

medi - You sir, are a moron.

qasim - Seek out a mental healthcare specialist.

Would you want people that talk like the ones above for friends? People that abuse others as casually as picking their nose? Would you want students like that? Disrespectful and rude? Would you want your daughter to bring home people like that? Maybe have to work with them for 8 hours a day, listening to them talk to people like that all day long?

I don't think people give too much consideration to the image they project to others. They want to be manly and tough and act like it doesn't matter. It does matter. If you want to be part of a functioning group, you need to fit in and not make waves. Casual abuse of your fellow group members will cause the group to disintegrate. Once a group falls apart, it almost never reforms.
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At some point awhile back, CKava was saying something about how sex affected the heart or lungs or something. I said to him why wasn't he discussing sex in kung fu terms since this was a kung fu forums? The answer of course was that he did not know how to discuss sex in kung fu terms. He doesn't really know much about sex or how it affects the body. He is not alone. Lots of people are the same. It is pretty complicated stuff.

CKava and others want to know why sexual activity can physically change the rest of the body. One way to think about it is to use the video link of the octopus that was provided.

At 1:16 in the video, the octopus is moving through the water with it's body and legs fully extended. You can think of your genitals as being the head of the octopus. The legs of the octopus travel from your genitals to your arms, your legs, and up into your head.

At 1:20 or so, the octopus stops and sinks to the ocean floor. When it does, all of the legs pull in and curl up close to the body. You can think of that motion as being similar to the effect sex has on the human body. Sex causes the "octopus legs" that connect the genitals to the rest of the body to pull in to the genitals like the legs of that octopus pulling into it's body.

When the genitals become stimulated, the human body behaves as if something is being pulled out of the body and pushed into the genitals. After sex, this something then leaves the genitals and returns to where it came from in the body.

This is how sexual activity can damage the body. The sex organs are directly linked to the arms, legs and head, and everything in between, by these octopus legs if you want to use that visual imagery. Or if you like some other kind of visual imagery, then you can use that.

Whatever visual imagery you choose, the sex organs are directly connected to every other part of the body. The damage that sex can cause to the body is done through these connections.

 

Got any evidence for ANYTHING you just said?

 

And you are one of them.

 

thecycle, I mean this sincerely:

You have taken a very arrogant attitude with so many people around here, that you really can't wonder that people have been rude, or that some (such as myself) may have wondered if you are not out to deliberately stir things up and cause ructions.

When others did not immediately respond positively or fawningly to your somewhat cryptic and pompous sounding comments, you started abusing them and trying to belittle them. Honestly, it is how you have come across. I think that if you are sincere, you should probably drop the stubborn attitude and the lecturing tone and just start making efforts to communicate your thoughts clearly. The responsibility is yours to communicate in such a way that others can understand your comments.

 

thecycle wrote:

This stuff is priceless. More please. Any chance of using some ornithological imagery next time; then you get some **** into the whole thing too (tee hee )

 

Okay,
I mentioned this before but here it goes again:
Sex is healthy, excessive sex can be unhealthy, this is EASTERN thought though it is misunderstood.
Sex by itself is healthy and was practiced greatly by many Taoist sects in the past and today. It is the ulitmate unification of Yin and Yang, male and female, it is a chance for a male to cultivate his Yin (female) counterpart and the female to cultivate her Yang (male) counterpart.
The idea that sex is unhealthy comes from the Taoist thought that actual ejaculation is a waste of Jing or the male essence. This Jing is a necessity to build Qi which then builds shen (I have stated this before on this thread). However, the cycle also works in reverse, if Jing is weak Qi will be used to replace it, if Qi is weak Shen will be used. This is where the idea that sexual EJACULATION can deplete Qi.
SEX ITSELF DOES NOT!!!! :woo:

Ancient Taoists sought to contain this primordial essence or jing feeling it's importance is similar to blood. So they sought to stop ejaculation through muscle control and what we now term as sexual Qigong. Though they still have SEX as they are able to cultivate YIN from a female in a natural way. Women do not get drained during sex (most don't hence the ability for multiple orgasms) where as men do (hence most w/o training cannot have multiple orgasms in short periods of time). The Ancient Taoists understood this and took this as a sign that men were likened to fire (quick to arousal and quick to burn) where women are likened to water (it takes time for water to boil and water can boil off for a long period of time).

Many in this thread (from what I have seen) believe that the idea of sex is bad. This is wrong, it is the ejaculation that was considered to cause a MAN to lose Qi or energy and effect his overall health, not the ACT. In TCM it is said that the Kidney's control reproduction (so all of sexual organs and adrenals and considered linked to the kidneys), interesting thing is that the kidneys also control the low back and low legs and knees. For most men when they ejaculate these are the main areas that get weak right away as these are the muscles that are also used to contract for ejaculation. In western Medicine the adrenals are also a large production center for hormones.
The adrenal cortex specifically is indicated for the sexual hormones Testosterone and estrogen and the largest amount is produced in the testes and ovaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_gland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone
Which per the above note are indicated to be still under the control of the Kidneys in TCM and Taoist thought. Most people have made this statement: "There is no proof that excess sex hurts you." I refer you to the Wiki article here which I will also paste:
Adult testosterone effects
Adult testosterone effects are more clearly demonstrable in males than in females, but are likely important to both sexes. Some of these effects may decline as testosterone levels decline in the later decades of adult life.

Maintenance of muscle mass and strength
Maintenance of bone density and strength
Libido and clitoral engorgement/penile erection frequency.
Mental and physical energy
Excessive testosterone in males can lead to an increased risk of prostate cancer

So this is what testosterone DOES, very important here, and during ejaculation you LOSE testoterone because the body needed it to stimulate the testes to produce semen. After ejaculation the testosterone is broken down within the body, also the amount of sperm produced depends on the testosterone levels. Most of the above is also very clear in TCM thought as the kidneys control the bones, and nourish the "sea of marrow" or the mind. So it is reasonable to think that by pushing yourself to this loss of Testosterone that you could in effect decrease what it does above.
Also here is another fact from Wiki:
Average energy in a tablespoon of semen: 2-7 kilocalories, 8-29 kilojoules

So you are also losing and burning energy, thus it stands to follow one can be weakened with excessive sex, ESPECIALLY with an improper diet if you are looking that energy in calories that is needed to replace the energy lost. This is also within the realm of TCM theory.

As we age we naturally produce less and less testosterone and hormones, this is a well known fact. Our bodies have limited reserves on many hormones and the more we use or produce the less we can in the future, hence hormone replacement therapy. However, the testosterone is produced in the Testes and Adrenal glands, most Sexual Qigong exercises are focused on the male being able to build up these areas to increase energy. The best way to do this is to HAVE sex, but not ejaculate in Taoist thought. This is evidenced by this link which I will also copy:
http://www.malehealth.co.uk/userpage1.cfm?item_id=1357

Is testosterone made in the testicles?

Yes. Testosterone is the most important of the male hormones. (The ovaries produce it in lower levels in women.)

It is responsible for muscle, bone and sexual development as well as sex drive. At puberty, it makes makes the voice drop and the penis, testicles and facial and pubic hair grow.

In the prostate gland, testosterone is broken down into the related hormone dihydro-testosterone which appears to be involved in baldness and enlarged prostate.

Testosterone levels fall slightly with age. Some men - particularly those with high levels to begin with - can effectively have half as much testosterone in their blood at 80 as at 20. It may lead to loss of muscle tone and bone strength and an increase in weight and the risk of heart disease and diabetes. Whether reduced testosterone is also the cause of the sluggishness, loss of libido and depression that some middle-aged men experience is debateable but it is worth thinking about. Testosterone replacement therapy is available but, while trials continue, many doctors are sceptical.

Can you boost testosterone levels naturally?

Yes. Taking more exercise and having more sex gets the hormones going. Also fat reduces the amount of testosterone available to the body so losing weight and cutting down on fatty foods and beer may help.

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies can worsen hormonal problems. Eat more seeds (particularly pumpkin and sunflower seeds), shellfish, beans, yoghurt and lean meat. These are high in zinc - the mineral essential for testosterone production. Ginseng, stinging nettles and the South American herb Muira Puama are also reputed to help.

Most of this diet therapy above is also beneficial to the kidneys in TCM. So the theory between the east and west is there, we just have to understand Anatomy and Physiology of both sides of thought. If you can think a little outside the box it is not so hard to see how having EXCESSIVE sex WITH EJACULATION can cause an overall weakness in MALES.

Notice I mentioned nothing of females and sex, though this is another drawn out topic, basically females do NOT lose energy through sexual intercourse as stated above. They are "creatures of blood" and tend to lose most of their natural essence during menses.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.

 

Taoquan your post was very good and I think you've presented a quite coherent argument however there is a contradiction inherent in your post which seems quite apparent to me...

First of all you point out that the loss of testosterone can have negative effects on the body and seem to be using this to support the argument that excessive ejaculation could have negative effects on the body.

However, later on you provide another quote which says that having more sex leads to higher levels of testosterone without any mention of ejaculation having a negative impact!

Nowhere in your post do you provide any evidence that testosterone is lost due to ejaculation. Thus I have to say that the link you draw between Chinese and Western medicine perspectives is quite tenuous.

 

CK,
You are correct and I apologize because I was interupted during this post and looks like I lost my train of thought.
Unfortunately, sexual Qigong does not go into hormone ideas so as to what it is doing there is unclear. We can only speculate as we overlap the east and western thought. Though Sexual Qigong does state that having more sex is healthy provided the restriction on the amount of ejaculation (ejaculation should be done once a week, but sex can be had 8x a day if desired). Testosterone is NOT lost DURING ejaculation, but rather building up to it as it is a hormone, steroid used to create sperm. Once it's job is done the body will break it down and eliminate what it cannot use again. This was provided in the post above where testosterone was needed to produce sperm.

To be perfectly honest I don't know of when testosterone production truly begins for example if it begins right after sperm is released and is not completely produced until sperm is used, then the Taoist theory is quite relevant to not have ejaculation.
However, if testosterone is produced on a consistent basis irregardless of the amount of sperm within the body, then there is a hole in that theory.

I cannot perfectly cover all basis of eastern and western thought as they are yet fundamentally different. However, I can show how the theory between the two could relate to similar ideas.

 

A 'kilocalorie' is actually what we refer to as a 'Calorie' in nutrition. So the amount of energy involved there is roughly equivalent to eating a couple of tic tacs... i.e. negligible.

 

True compassion isn't always kind. If I have a friend that decides he can beat anyone at the local boxing club even though he has no fighting training or experience; would it be better for me to humor his fantasy and let him get beaten into a coma or burst his bubble and tell him he is a fool and that he will get himself hurt if he tries to fight?

If you are worried about someone's image look at your own.

So what you are trying to say is that sex pulls essential qi away from the rest of the body? (or you have a calamari fetish )











P.S. Before some pedantic killjoy comments: I know that it's squid.

 

You have got to be kidding us here. The discussion here is at times lighthearted, but the point of this site is to exchange information, not to play with people who wish to just get attention whether it is positive or negative attention. You appear to thrive on negative attention.

Here is some sincere and solid advice for you gentle folk who have been reading this thread,

DO NOT Feed The TROLLS! 'Nuff Said. :woo:

 

So Fornication does not deplete Chi, however, endless babble about Chi may rob you of opportunities to fornicate.