Does anyone know bout Kipas Senandung?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by jameskorst, Feb 12, 2006.

  1. CQC

    CQC Arsenal Gear's A.I

    Quoted from Silat Cekak Hanafi's textbook,page 78-79 (printed in Malay,I put the picture of the book too)

    "Buah Serang is not based on mantras,baca-baca or jampi serapah, but it is a fine and artistic movement.This is the advantage of the finest buah serang that was handed down to us by our Malay ancestors.We should be proud of it.

    The offensive buah that is based on the "penumbuk jantan" style,a punch that many thought as a punch of those who never know any about silat and those that can be countered easily.But from that assumption, lies unexpected move,and there lies the secret of movement which makes this silat known as Silat Cekak."

    Attached Files:

  2. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    This can be interpreted in two ways:

    Physical: Some physical movement which counters the attempt to block the punch. In this case I don’t see why it would be considered “secret”, being a purely mechanical technique.

    Non physical: Accompanying the punch is an energy manipulation technique which will have an effect on the opponent regardless if he manages to block the physical punch or not.
  3. Taker

    Taker Valued Member

    Peace to All,

    I myself is a member of the Silat Cekak Hanafi, an Instructor (Tenaga Pengajar) at Assistant Coach Trainee level. I see that this thread has been mislead out of its topic, from Kipas Nandung @ Senandung to what is Silat Cekak Hanafi. So I will try my best to enlighten everyone by sharing the knowledge I have on the topic.

    Kipas Nandung is one of the four techniques known in the Malay Silat world as the "Empat Ilmu Tertinggi", or The Four Highest Techniques, consisting of Ibu Gayung, Sendi Gendang, Kipas Nandung and lastly, Bisik Semak. I will tell briefly on the techniques based on what my Guru Utama told me. But before that, let me tell you that even this techniques had their own varieties and maybe some didn't have the effects as what I will wrote.

    Ibu Gayung, like jameskrost wrote, is "Ibu Gerak", or mother of all movements. I will elaborate it like this; while most silat moves are like the branches of the tree, you study the trunk of that tree, eg. the origin of the moves so that by knowing only one tree trunk, you can defend youself from thousands of its' branches. To some level, the pesilat can evade even though he was attacked while he was sleeping.

    As far as for Sendi Gendang, I still didn't acquire knowledge on this technique, perhaps I still have to do a lot of research on this.

    Kipas Nandung is an offensive technique with the combination of physical strength, skill and a touch of bathin auras. Most still believed that it was Dato' Meor Rahman's Kipas Nandung that killed Bruce Lee, and while the debate continues, some are more driven than ever to search for this deadly move.

    Bisik Semak is a very special technique. A person having this knowledge can really see into other people's mind, especially on the intuation of wanting to attack. Sounds hard to believe? I don't blame you but it did happened to me once, and was I shocked :eek: .

    On Silat Cekak Hanafi topic, CQC & resmi padi yes these techniques is not given to you even though you've completed the 21 buah's of Silat Cekak. To actually acquire these knowledge, I must say it'll be almost impossible unless it's your lucky day (perhaps 15 to 20 years from now). Actually many veterans of Silat knows all the four techniques, but nobody on earth knows that except theirselves and the Guru who gave it to them.

    About the Buah Serang or the one and only offensive technique in Silat Cekak Hanafi, there's a saying that acompany it; "Elak kena, tepis makan" (If you evade, it'll hit; if you block, it'll counterattack". As for Narrue yes the move could result in death, even if not it will cause serious damage to the internal organs that would lead to years of suffering. It's not entirely mechanical movement, there are some spices added to the recipe, but it never consisted of auras or bathin. ;)

    I do hope my post helps in one way or another, but if you would like to discuss more on the topic, feel free to write to me at
  4. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Hi Taker,

    The mother of all movements! Well how far shall we trace movement back to its original cause? You can keep on going until there is practically nothing left or if you prefer everything. So question is how far back?
  5. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    If you think of the metaphor of the human body being like a tree then the arms and legs would represent the branches and roots whilst the trunk of the body represents the trunk of the tree. All motion starts in the trunk of the body and results in either a movement of the hands or feet. The trunk of the body can twist (Gelek) or bend. The root of gelek is to be found in the hips and shoulders. To move the legs you must first twist the hips and to move the arms you must first twist the shoulders. By watching the hips and shoulders it should be possible to know how a person is going to move, whether it be movement of the upper body (shoulders) or the lower body (hips).
    Therefore I would say the root or mother of all silat movements is the gelek ;)
  6. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    You have one of the keys of silat! :)
  7. Taker

    Taker Valued Member

    Peace to All,

    Ibu Gayung is a knowledge not only consisting of knowing the mechanical movements of the body, it also acquire a high level of skill to achieve it, as well as it consist of some bathin (that's why they can evade even while sleeping). However I'll try to elaborate (literally) some key elements of Ibu Gayung;

    "tumpang gerak" (Ride along opponents' move)
    The skill is to go along with the opponents' move, not to disturb the flow but still use the same momentum to counter it (makan diri sendiri).

    "main gerak" (Play opponents' move)
    Very straightforward, the skill is to manipulate the opponents' moves, not just to counter it but to inflict damage to his/her psychology by making his/her move looks foolish.

    "tipu gerak" (Cheat on opponents' moves)
    By using this skill, you'll make a move that to the opponent, it'll look easy to counter/block or it looks like a certain jurus for him to get ready with, but as the name says, you cheat on the move and at the very last minute, you switch to the real intention behind the step.

    "bunuh gerak" (Kill opponents' moves)
    This skill is aimed at stopping the opponents' attack, whether it was in the beginning phase or almost finished. You let the move strike out first and at the critical point, you lock the move into a "kunci mati" position, where he can't reverse the move nor continue nor unlock it. Dead in his tracks...

    As for the bathin side, I leave it to those who have the "ijazah" (blessings) to carry the knowledge to tell it (which I assume no one will). But the bathin side have a great effect on Ibu Gayung that you can't say you have Ibu Gayung while at the same time you said you never know of any bathin knowledges. :confused:

    As long as I can elaborate, I can only tell the tip of the iceberg. To know the rest, you have to "berguru" (find a good guru to teach it) yourself. As I said, this is one of the Four Highest Techniques in the Malay Silat world, so you can be sure it's not like finding an instructor and ask him to teach you how to do a kuda-kuda. :D

    I do hope this post helps in one way or another.
  8. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    When I said “how far back” that is what I meant. I said the root of motion was the gelek, I was referring to the purely physical.
    Obviously all movement (physical) is first manifested with the intention to move. If you have that ability to interpret rasa then that is the origin of movement on a higher level. It’s my understanding that Silat Cikalong put an emphasis on the development of rasa, the ability to feel intention and its many levels of sensitivity.
    There are other very advanced techniques which make use of an aggressor’s intention and use it against him for defence, the more aggression manifested the more effective the technique will be. There are techniques still higher which don’t relay on intention and will work regardless. These are things that most of us will never manifest or need though it is fascinating with respect to the capabilities of the human body.

    I mentioned one point of the triangle so I should probably mention the other two. Gelek is the first movement but before movement a person needs to develop a strong trunk. Before developing a strong trunk a person first needs to find his centre. Finding the centre is the beginning.

    First point: A person who has true stillness has found his centre. A wheel which does not spin from its true centre is out of control. A river with many streams lacks power. Harmony, focus, stillness, coordination are all words that can be used to describe this. Basically in order to do anything efficiently you must first be focused, the many streams must join to form a river (Sajud)

    Second point: Now that focus has been developed the next stage is to develop physical strength by developing the trunk or core of the body. Focus without something physical to back it up is of no use. There is no point moving if you don’t have a sturdy stance therefore the next posture is Kuda Kuda.

    Third point: Already talked about this one being the root of all motion, the Gelek.

    I would say this triangle is the core of all Silat, three keys :)
  9. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    I would disagree with this to a small degree. I believe sikap & core structure are IMPORTANT, of course, but it is one half of the coin. The fluid motion that is the polar opposite of rooting in your stance takes precedence over standing rigid with your feet grounded. Power generation is good, but power sacrafices speed to be effective. It's a sliding scale, so which do you need more of, and at what time? For evasion and entries, speed trumps streangth. For counters and striking, more power less speed. Also, you can't change heights of directions fluidly at an instant if you have too much tension in your motion, something that is a result of too much "Core Stance" training.
  10. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I would say the kuda kuda is the polar opposite of the gelek, actually I was going to write about this but couldn’t be bothered.
    To gelek you need to relax the body. It is spiral motion, I guess we could say its feminine whilst the Kuda kuda is masculine. When I was talking about strength I don’t mean the huge muscles a weight lifter develops and as a consequence moves slower. Kuda kuda won’t develop that type of body.

    On a completely different note does anyone know if silat Cekak has many similarities with silat Cikalong?
  11. asli

    asli New Member

    salam all :D

    u r jumping to a conclusion to fast there bro..if it's that obvious, most pesilat already have ibu gayong by now..try do gelek while u were sleeping. :eek: .i would say if u want to know the truth about ibu gayong etc, i'll say just go straight to the source, those guru utama, grandmaster ie(i mean those who REALLY know about this stuff). if you're lucky, then s/he'll tell/show u. if u'r not, than it's just not ur day..i don't believe u can find the answer in here..yes, u can make ur own opinion,but then ur thoughts are just ur thoughts mulder said, "the truth is out there". :)
  12. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hi Asli,

    I'm with Narrue on this one. The Gelek is fundamental to the core principles of moving in silat (What I train in at least). Without it, there is less flow, less smoothness, and less co-ordination of a whole body structure movement. If learnt correctly (a VERY important factor!), it will balance out your body mechanics, as the coiling and turning won't feel or look right if done incorrectly.

    The gelek also helps you to stop taking "shortcuts" in your movement, as if done properly, you will naturally turn, twist, coil, etc... at the right time. It really comes into it's own during multiple attackers, as it helps you to better deal with people coming at you from different directions, and allowing you the quick, smooth changes between the different angles.

    If your silat has it's principles rooted in circular motions, then the gelek is intrinsically entwined with the movement.

  13. Abdullah1881

    Abdullah1881 New Member

    Assalamualaikum Asli,

    I noticed a while back u mentioned about tenega dalam sparring and all that old superstition. :)

    i have rarely heard about all these superstitions, "ibu gayong" to spoken about in public. just wonder what perguruan u are from?


  14. asli

    asli New Member

    salam wali,

    of course gelek is a fundamental to the core principles of moving in silat. and so too langkah, tapak etc. i just didn't agree that to say the root or mother of all silat movements is the gelek. that's all. :) ..ibu gayong=gelek :confused:

    salam abdullah,
    im sure that u're a malaysian silat player.most probably from gayong malaysia/pusaka?? :rolleyes: ..well, all i can say is, im not from gayong malaysia :D .yeah, me and superstition. maybe i should stop right there and then. at least we have taker representing cekak, sulaiman for gayong, amirul for kuntau tekpi and how glad i am to see u guys sharing infos about ur perguruan, and generally silat melayu with the rest of the world, as they are sharing theirs. :) we're all in a big family anyway :love:

    er, did i mention about tenaga dalam sparring? really? coz i didn't remember it. must be a while ago. :eek:
  15. Abdullah1881

    Abdullah1881 New Member

    salam asli,

    yeah must have been a while ago. ;)

  16. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    Sorry for the late intrusion. It's been a while since I've been here. Interesting thread. Since I noticed that the article referred to by Moridin actually appeared in an ezine that I published online late last year, I felt maybe I could add some extra information based on what I know.

    Resmi Padi
    The story of Datuk Meor and Bruce Lee’s meeting has been circulating among Gayong members since the meeting ‘happened’. Unfortunately, in all accounts, I have never been able to meet a first hand eyewitness. When Datuk Ahmad Lazim was alive, he admitted that he was himself unsure of whether the meeting took place, due to confusion.

    However, this topic was hotly debated leading to a comparative article in SENI BELADIRI in its earlier issues. Indonesians have a different version of the Bruce Lee death theory which involves Dicky Zulkarnain.

    However, in a widely documented account, (anyone have the Malay Mail issue which refers to this?) during the 1987 Silat World Championships in Malaysia, Dicky declared to the audience to debunk the myth that he ever met Bruce Lee, but added that only ‘one person has ever fought him, and he is sitting right here in this hall’. Without naming the person, Dicky pointed in Datuk Meor’s direction. Talk about adding speculation to mystery. We may never know who he was talking about.

    James Korst
    The answer given by the Principal of Silat Cekak Hanafi, Mohammad Radzi Hanafi was thus, “There four pinnacles of knowledge in silat are Ibu Gayong, Kipas Nandung, Sendi Gedang [not gendang] and Bisik Semak”. Although it was unclear that he referred to Silat Cekak Hanafi having these, but it has been long rumoured to be so.

    What is also clear to many pesilat Cekak Hanafi of good standing is that these ‘pinnacles’ are not physical techniques, rather manifestations of spiritual training. In many cases, the accompanying technique that is manifested is also called by the same name, which confuses people like me.

    The Buah Gerak or Buah Sebiji is nothing more than a technical attack that is taught t the end of the syllabus. The reason it cannot be blocked is because counters and recounters are effected almost immediately. Coupled with good knowledge of pressure points and nerve nexi, you can probably turn it into a killer strike. But with just basic mechanics of this attack, the least you can do is knock the wind out of the opponent before he realizes it has arrived. The timing of the attack is critical and is definitely skill based. There is no energy manipulation involved (unless you mean kinetic energy).

    As for Ibu Gerak/ Ibu Gayong, for practical reasons, Gerak and Gayong mean the same thing, which is motion. Therefore, Ibu means the source of motion, not the source of movement. In esoteric studies, this means Al Aql al Awwal of the sufis, or the First Principle of the Greeks. In short, it is the study of how Allah motivates his Creation. Unfortunately, that’s as far as I can take you.

    However, I you define Ibu Gayong/ Gerak to literally mean the mother of all ‘movement’, then I absolutely agree with you. Gelek is where it starts.

    Another point is kuda-kuda. When Malaysian pesilat use the word, it is often to describe Tapak. The kuda-kuda is not a stance the way a rooted stance is, which is why not many Melayu arts traditionally used it. Tapak means mobility and is hardly totally masculine. Thus, the Gelek exists within the Tapak to a higher degree than the Kuda-Kuda, which you’ve described as at polar opposites.

    And, as far as I can tell, Silat Cekak has very few similarities with Silat Cikalong, but that should be a conversation for another day.
  17. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    <> & >< Horse stance & gelek, think about it :)
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  18. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    Salam hormat,

    I have. I don't think I misunderstood your use of the word. Just saying that maybe we use it differently. Could be a whole topic on its own. :)
  19. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    I know the Kipas Nandung technique. Really, it is simpler than what it is made out to be.

    If you really want to learn it, find me.

    I'm in Malaysia btw...

    But, I am careful who I teach it to though.
  20. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Um do know that thread is five years old and the OP has a post count of seven which means he probably hasn't been here in like five years, right?

    Still props to you for offering to be helpful. Cheers...

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