Does anyone have any " Fred Villari" clips?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by shaolinmonkmark, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    It seems to be a thing with Kaju and Kempo with slamming the uke. I always hear that it's supposed to be about "letting the uke know the move works" but to me it's just showing the uke you have a complex about the size of your genitalia. Why not grab some gloves and show me how the move's REALLY done....oh it won't work then? Ah well, perhaps some other time.
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I have yet to see much different than I experienced. Perhaps I'm limited on only being on the island, and REAL Kempo is much like Sasquatch or vampires when being caught on film. Like my take on religion, I'll believe it when I see it.

    For the record right here on the island Tom Ingargriola (probably spelled that wrong) runs a Kung Fooey type Kempo school, but also competes and has students compete FC in local kickboxing bouts. Despite their love affair with animal forms and compliant techniques I've mentioned, their live kickboxing training more than compensates for that, and I'd say it's a quality place to train.

    It's about being honest Dan. It's about looking at what you're doing and asking...."what the hell am I doing?" Those compliant drills done hour after hour may be adding more tools to your toolbox, but it's certainly not teaching you how to use them when they count. So far only Joe and ironically Gary seem have agreed with me on this.
  3. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Jim, good article, I do appreciate your personal insight into this. We make each other think and that is a good thing. I can see you take your martial arts very seriously and in depth. You just don't look at the surface, you look beneath it and you are creative and open, that is very important. You mention #18 in your reply to Dan. I really don't care for #18 myself as taught. I can see if someone grabs at your jacket or shirt and you come down hard instead of soft, close fist downward block-like on his median nerve (the mound of the forearm) and then come back hard with a backfist to his face....Some of these combinations work better for grabs then punches and some were intended as such from what I understand but are initially trained to learn the movement against a punch. Learning against a punch does sharpen your reaction time and the technique is then easily transferred to a grab. Anyway, SGM. Pesare told me #18 combiantion was Prof. Nick Cerio's favorite, I wonder why? I'll have to ask SGM. Pesare.

    Remember about the Kempo punch techniques though. These are not neccessarily part of the original systems or even an offshoot of the originals, many are purely made up from the different instructors over the years and handed down which is not always a good idea, for I have always said there are good instructors, average instructors and, let's just say to be nice, not so good instructors, lol. We also have to take into account some well meaning instructors just have absolutely no street experience or any street sense for that matter, that's where some of the problems arise, not too mention some watch too many movies, lol.

    By the way. Mr. Pesare has been doing the combination (#18) closed handed for quite a while now, similiar to what I described and has dedicated it to Nick Cerio. Just to add a little more, the original #26 combination was a shoulder dislocate technique, it's not wasn't a leopard's paw to the nerves in the arm pit but a powerful uppercut in an attempt to dislocate the unstable shoulder girdle. Thanks for the interesting debate! - Joe
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  4. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Look, you're assuming that the rest of us don't have your concerns at heart, or that our training is all like that you received in your group. I've asked "What the hell am I doing?" since before you were born, and I think I've arrived at some answers in that regard. I think we all get it when you tell us of your experiences with kempo and that it sucked. I'm glad that you're training somewhere that pleases you and no one gets hurt, but your experiences don't necessarily apply to everyone.
  5. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    More than one may know.

    Some people are on a different path than others. It is true that we will all end up in the same place eventually - that meaning we will all dead. However, we won't all end up at the same place in terms of martial arts. There are some methods of training that are more efficient than others. If your path is right for you, that is fine. Kempofist walks a different path and that is fine. If you want to become a better fighter, his path will take you there in a faster and quite honestly better manner.

    This is just another evolution in martial arts training. Nothing to get worked up over. Eventually it was bound to happen here in the United States where we take things from different cultures and mix them all up and turn them into something even more effective. On that same note, we strip down those things we steal from other cultures and in doing so we lose a lot of the beatiful things. It is a personal choice that one makes. They either are training to incorporate the culture and some self-defense, or they are training to become an even better fighter than the people that came before them. Try not to mistake the two.
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Alright, I'll bite: Como Te llamas?
  7. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Never mind. This has got to be badsifu.
  8. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Dan wrote: "There are many many LEOs and others that value their Kempo/Kenpo training for a good reason: it works."

    Dan, I couldn't have said that better because I'm one of them, thanks. ;)
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    MMA is cool and a great sport. However, most fighters I've met, be they bouncers, LEOs or whatever, have had MA training of some stripe (though like you said many LEOs and bouncers don't like to train. When we freestyle in our school, we have mats and I tend to like to take down and grapple a bit. That's usually when John will tell two more people to go get me and I promptly start to lose. Most real fights I have been in or seen have essentially ended in one to five shots beginning to end anything that teaches you body mechanics will help. I wouldn't try a double leg takedown in a bar though.
  10. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    I wouldn't try a double leg takedown in a bar though.[/QUOTE] - Dan

    Good point, Dan, as an old high school wrestler, neither would I. Good way to get your head kicked in. In police, we do train taking a guy to the ground for handcuffing purposes against an actively resisting suspect, in other words, he's fighting all the way, lol. However, this is a very risky thing to do when you're in a bar and you don't have back up, unfortunately sometimes you may not have a choice. That's the reason for my strong belief in the hardcore training methods - it's not how much you can dish out BUT how much you can take. Hopefully, there won't be a weapon involved or you're f....ed.

    Imho, I think Chuck Liddell's strategy is the best as applied to MMA. He's a credit to the Kempo arts. He gives a nice blend of what to do with striking and grappling which can carry over nicely into the street if neccessary. - Joe
  11. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    what gave it away? The fact that I am so damn right it makes your brain explode?
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    LOL! Just the overall tone. Plus I remember you in that MMA gear when meeting someone up north a few months ago.
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    # 1 Principle, no dishonesty Dan.


    I believe this gave you away sometime ago. I am suprised you have taken this long to get involved. I noticed you earlier.

    [ame=""]Tyrrell Ohana Kids Kajukenbo - Level 1 - Mat Brats - YouTube[/ame]

    Posted at another location on MAP.

    So what is coming next?


    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  14. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Joe, That's combination 20...not 1. It's almost verbatim except for the block.
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    What "Dan" are you referring to Gary? What #1 principle are you referring to?
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Dan(jo), I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive. I've said nothing in criticism of your training than Joe's, Gary's or anyone else on here's training. In fact I do remember saying not only to you but to your instructor that I respect how you guys train and what you guys do. And if I do recall correctly, a while back you DID agree that your pre-Kaju Kempo experience mirrored very closely to mine.

    My criticism on here is of the training methodology, as is my issue on nearly every debate that I take place in online. It seems most people on this thread that hail from a Kempo background learned the same if not very similar techniques to what I learned/taught, and I feel it's helpful to have discussion of the place of those techniques (or lacktherof) out in the open.

    I don't see what your problem is, but if you want I'll go get the pliers to help loosen up those panties you got in a bunch.
  17. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Yeah your old ladies' panties are a bit tight :) Anyways, sorry to sound defensive. Some days are like that.
  18. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Hi Gufbal1981, I hear ya but here's the problem. It's not 'my' #20 that I do and it's not the same as yours. I was taught it, first in 1976 by Hanshi Craig Seavey, later in Black Belt workouts with Gm. Fred Villari and later, when Craig relocated for awhile in California by Masters John Fritz and Art Singer. Something changed along the way, are you referring to Mattera's west coast curriculum of later years? I think we can agree that George Pesare taught Nick Cerio and Nick Cerio taught Fred Villari and George Pesare created #6 kata in the 1960's, right?

    I know this is tough to follow, but try to bear with me, thanks.
    This one is hard to put in writing.

    Cerio's NCK version of #1 combination and you can reference this in his Master's Text, page 162-3, 10 steps to it. In the second step, you step back and block. The block is a soft knife hand block. This step back and block is like the step into a cat stance with the high/middle open hand guard, the middle guard being the initial block as you now move forward into the dragon hand (in other words grabbing at the wrist) in kata 6. Okay, so far it looks like Cerio's. In Cerio's text it then states to tiger claw past the face, sweep it, and return with the back of the fist to the side of the head. In step 6, it has the takedown but there is no armlock, like in the SKK version after the downward soft parry block where you coil around the arm and lock in just above the elbow. It states to secure or control at the wrist as your opponent hits the ground. Now, the same follow up that is not done in the kata of a punch to the face and a knife hand to the neck. Then, the last step, number 10-you keep your left hand at his wrist locking his arm out as you place your right palm at his elbow for an armbar control/submission.

    However, in the kata, the right hand cocks or chambers back to strike to the side of the neck with a knife hand (instead of a chicken wrist or backhand or fist.) They did this for power. That's the real old stuff that had been cleaned up, you can see movements like that back in Mr. Parker's book, Kenpo Karate - Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand (1961). After 1961, all this wasted motion, these gaps, started being refined. You would not pull your hand back like that in today's kenpo/kempo because it would telegraph your intent so you use what Mr. Parker refers to as a compound technique. The hand has to pass the face anyway, so you make use of it with a tiger claw sweep or rake to the face and then return with a strike to the side of the neck or head with the same hand.

    Again, when I saw Mr. Mattera's book and read the breakdown of #20 combination, I said to myself, wow, that's been simplified. Again, Seavey, Villari, Fritz, Singer, etc. this is how I was taught it, not to mention we also wrote things down then. #20, as you step back in the cat you do a 'circling wrist block' with the left hand, it deflects gently and circles around the wrist pulling your hand into your left pectoral in the chest as you also step back in, this locks his wrist into your body, while this is happening, simultaneously, your right hand moved back in a circle toward you as you were going back in the cat and came out of the cat into a driving shuto to the sternum. Both the lock of the wrist to the pec and the shuto to the sternum were completed at the same time. The shuto hand had to moving in a small vertical (toward the target) circle, counter clockwise while the left hand was blocking and circling the wrist to the side or horizontally counter clockwise.

    This was very difficult to coordinate and I really don't know whose brain child it was, Nick Cerio's or Fred Villari's but that's how we were taught it at that time. You then do the tiger mouth leg hock and front two knuckle to the the face BUT a spear hand poke to the throat, not a knife hand like #1 comb.

    Kosho wrote that in #6 kata, he also gave a scoop type kick follow up to the head of the downed attacker. Not so in the original we were taught. The takedown was done at a slight angle and then you would turn to 3' o'clock and scoop kick (sort of like a low cross type kick off the right foot, this was in the original #22 combination of SKK). Anyway, the scoop kick to the knee takes the man down on one leg and you then follow up with a a front ball kick, about middle high to his lowered head.

    I'm interested in hearing your explaination of what is going on after the stepping stool kick at 12:00 o'clock and you turn to 6:00 o'clock and do a downward block and then a upward block and a front ball kick middle level. Reason I'm asking, I'm just curious to see if there is something changed from east coast to west coast. In other words, why do a front kick to middle level, wouldn't a punch be more appropiate after blocking upward because of the close distance? I'm thinking you do this segment the same as us. Thanks, Joe
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  19. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    My ears were burning.
  20. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Look dude, I learned my combinations from Armen Heroian, a student of Art Singer, who came to California in 85'...never trained with Mr. Mattera. We learned it as an outward knifehand block with the left, wrap the arm as you driving shuto the collarbone with the right hand. Crosshand shuto the neck with the right as you bring it back (as if it were a glancing strike) for a tiger's mouth to the throat, while you leg hock with the right. Front 2 knuckle to the face, spear hand to the throat. I taught my combinations the same way when I switched from FV to USSD. When I went back to FV for a very short time, I still didn't have it changed from my original way, except an elbow has been added. That's per FV.

    My explanation of why you do a front kick in Kata 6 after the downward block, followed by an upward block is simple. You've redirected their body movement to go backwards. They've taken a step back after you blocked them, and that sets you up for the kick. Plain and simple.

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