Does anyone have any " Fred Villari" clips?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by shaolinmonkmark, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    That's cool, and that's exactly what I mean by taking the good out of the impractical techniques, and setting up drills and combo's that DO work that can be executed. I'm willing to bet my last and finest penny that none of those combos are longer than 3 or 4 strikes, and none of them rely on an opponent who stops fighting back once his strike is evaded, blocked or countered.
     
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Just realized they pulled a page from boxing promoters when they speed up the film to make the boxers look lighting fast for dramatic effect in the beginning of that video (I thought my player was screwed up). Hilarious to watch him stand upright like that slapping away attacks, and shin kicking....I guess it goes to show you speeding up film doesn't make everything look cooler....if it starts off ridiculous it just gets MORE ridiculous :rolleyes:
     
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes, I would agree with you Kempofist. In FMA that I study, the term is "3 strikes and you are out". It is taken from the teachings of several GM's. But the main one that comes to mind is GM Angel Cabalas.

    It is related to the edged weapons of fighting, but I still believe it can be related to empty hands. We feel it is a very good way to look at the actual way of striking and hitting that is very important in self defense. (not Grappling though).

    When at the Memorial for Prof. Chow...Master Chun Jr. was showing that very thing. He mentioned that one of the things that is very important in the arts he teachs, is to be creative and go with the flow at the time. He feels that is what the Professor did also.

    I go along with that 100% +. But in order to accomplish that you have to have "tools in the bag", as you mentioned, earlier.
    To discard something is pretty hard if it is well learned. IMHO... I think some of what Bruce Lee mentioned is ok, but not all of it, I see to many flaws in his teaching. Others have also seen that, from what I have read. Joe Lewis for one and Hawkins Cheung for another.

    Bruce Lee was a philosopher and an actor. He did not fight. Really, he did not. The one fight he got into in San Francisco is highly suspect from the way his widow remembers it. In fact he was very much displeased with his ability and went back and changed his direction, after that fight, others mention...

    http://www.hawkinscheung.com/

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    True,
    That is what EPSr. observed in his backwards playing of his films also, why he changed some of his stuff. Very smart man that is for sure.

    Gary
     
  5. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Most combos I've seen are no longer than 3 or 4 strikes. I wouldn't really call it "good out of bad" though. Combos can be practiced statically or dynamically and SHOULD be done both ways in training.
     
  6. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Hey...I didn't say it was good. I just said it was a clip.
     
  7. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Good Combo based on reality: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNYPWvWOZ1g"]Duke Roufus, Muay Thai, Full Contact Kickboxing, MMA - Combos - YouTube[/ame]

    Bad Combo based on theory: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_iM73jZSM"]YouTube[/ame]

    Keep in mind, this is one of the most simplistic Kempo techniques I can think of.
     
  8. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Hi Jim,
    I don't listen to the sound I just watch. I have to disagree with you on the "bad based on theory". Happens all the time in the octagon and many times it is what takes out people big time. I saw it occur where Evans took out a very good fighter. He used a fake and kicked him right in the ear.

    Lost his equalibriam and hit the ground like a sack of rice, was taken out with a few more before the ref could get in to save the downed fighter.

    He took some bad shots and was still out when they panned away for the night. Evans should not have hit the guy after he hit the ground, it was proof positive he was out on his feet. But hey, that is life in the ring/pit.

    Also:
    Now, why I don't like sparring. First age, and the knee is unprotected and the first kick was way to close for sparring between mates IMHO. Not a good deal for the Muay Thai kicks to be that close to the knee. It was almost illegal, for in the ring, let alone in the gym.

    Gary :)
     
  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    You should listen to the sound...you're missing priceless gems :)

    And no you are describing something else (something else that is practical and useful). Combination 8 relies on one of two things to happen. Either a) the person gets kicked in the groin, drops their head down thus making the 2nd kick land on its mark, or b) The person does a typical krotty style low block to the first kick, thus leaving their head exposed and eating the 2nd strike.

    Faking a low kick into a head kick also requires perfect timing, motion, and a setup that's been in place from earlier in the fight (think, throw out a few punches and a low kick). Once you got the guy thinking he's got your pattern down, you switch it up and land the head kick.

    Doing this drill and getting down the mechanics does not necessitate dead technique practice, nor does it a require a compliant uke who punches in with a flacid and telegraphed punch and waits to be hit. It does however require lots of training of cardio, flexibility, bagwork, padwork and of course live kickboxing style sparring so you can practice setting up your strikes.

    edit* I'm not sure about many other Kempo schools, but I know mine, and the local USSD liked to teach combo 8 with this "equalizer" attitude, where the student was led to believe they were being "smarter" than another fighter, because instead of working so hard to kick high, they would kick the groin to bring the head down to them. This also transcended into a Kempo mentality that physical fitness was only a bonus on top of their solid techniques which "capitalized on body mechanics that everyone can fall victim to" so that even the most out of shape slob could feel confident and dangerous.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  10. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Hi,
    Ill try and listen to the one you are talking about..But most of them, are not clear for my hearing even loud. Yes I have on hearing aids also :)

    The whole thing is about the ability to fight, Joe Lewis mentioned it best when he said it is the man not the various arts in todays arena. Yes, some are better than others. The guys who get to be professionals are all good as a rule. Not as good as some of the others but a lot better than those who do not get paid to fight.

    I believe the ones who have been training in the ring as a boxer are very tough. If a training partner hurts the star, he is gone...So what does that tell you?

    One of the best was Larry Holmes, he was the Champ for over 7 years. Yet some say he was no good :D Now that is something you have to take with a grain of salt and ignore IMHO...

    Back to the "UKE" and the striking hard into them. I see that, I don't like anything about it, for it is like hitting a bag. Problem is you can hurt them and bad.

    Never have liked it, one bit. It is not like Marine Corps Training or the Army or as a LEO. There you are a professional, as I mentioned about the boxers, you are making a living out of it. Have medical insurance and if hurt will be taken care of properly.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

    One of the reasons I like sticks, you are hitting them and not the person for practice.

    Gary
     
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Tim Sylvia was a UFC champ for some time, but no one thought he was "good" either ;)
     
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    "simplistic" means "not thought out", but either way, Why pick #8? Why not #6, 7 or 12? (12 can be done 3 ways depending on how the attacker reacts to the first kick.) #18 was one I could always make work at full speed off of either a reverse or forward punch.

    I'll grant you that there are numerous combos that are impractical IMO, but the ones I named above are workable far more than #'s 8 & 9.
     
  13. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, Gary, most people use sparring to improve rather than just reading books and whacking a bag with sticks. When you train for real, you get hit and kicked. Hard to make an omlette W/O cracking a few eggs etc.

    When I trained in escrima, I got hit with the sticks and open hands. A LOT! All part of the training. If you know in advance that all someone is going to do is hit your sticks, it lacks aliveness. You get used to not really having to defend yourself, but rather play some stick version of "patty cakes".
     
  14. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    edit* I stand corrected on the misuse of simplistic....meant the most simple and direct.

    Hah. I picked 8 because it was one of the more "down to earth" techniques I recall (as well as having a nifty video on hand for those who don't know). 6 and 7 I find to be the most easily translatable to reality, but 12 and 18???? Not sure if you learned it different, but I learned it as cupping the hand and CATCHING the punch as it comes at you, then stepping into a slap to the ear. Follow that up with a reverse grip to the back of the neck, drawing him down with a horse stance and then elbowing and hammer striking to the temple. You think THAT is useful?

    And 12? Well I suppose if you made it into an offensive move with a simple kick followed by a spinning back kick then yeah I'll give ya that.

    Anyway, as I was saying, it doesn't matter how well the moves and techniques can translate into fighting techniques - whether you alter them or not. Practicing them on an uke who just punches and stands there is not developing skill. If you have a live person to work technique with, well WORK TECHNIQUE! Lets put on some light gloves and work some drills. Have them come at you with realistic strikes that you'd encounter and fire back with the drills. Unfortunately this is a hard concept for a lot of Kempo schools to comprehend, and a big part of it has to do with the fact that much of their curriculum doesn't translate well into such an environment (ya know....reality).
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  15. meijin10

    meijin10 Valued Member

    reality

    The proper way to train for real fighting is multi layered.
    This can be done in different a order. This has been written for impact type fighting.
    1) learn the pattern utilizing air strikes to develope proper flow,
    2) apply the pattern against a heavy bag develope proper power applications and range,
    3) do the pattern against a static opponent, this will help develope the ability to strike targets through the proper doorways and at the proper range,
    4) do it against an opponent who is moving so that you can learn how to stay in proper range while moving,
    5) learn how to counter this same pattern,
    6) live drills between you and a responding opponent.
    There are a few more.
    When you train like this, no matter what style you are in, you will be effective.
    I think that a fair video comparison should have been,
    Kickboxing - 1 proper preset & 1 improper preset,
    Karate - 1 proper preset & 1 improper preset.
     
  16. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

     
  17. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    I like your post post Dan, I agree. See, I can give short answers too, lol.- Joe
     
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I agree with this. This is the same thing that boxer's do. Not all training is "Aliveness" training. Bag work, shadow boxing, pad drills etc. are all a part of it and all have their uses. If one admits that practicing pre-set combos (ala Chuck Lidell) in a non-aliveness situation is valuable, then we are agreeing on the principle and merely talking about the specific techniques that one feels do or don't work. In that case, the criticism should not be directed to "Kenpo" in general, but rather to specific combos that one doesn't like and why.
     
  19. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Gufbal1981, sorry for the delay but I was off-line for two days. You say: "Nope", I say: "Yep". My #6 originally came from the 70's and I had also gone over it with Gm. Villari. so I don't know if we have the exact same movements, things may have changed. #6 kata was put created by SGM. Pesare in the 60's to perserve some of the original combinations of the system. Yes, it can be a loose interpretation of 20 also, really loose though, since the strike, the knife hand, goes from a driving knife hand to the sternum (combination) to a cross knife hand to the side of the neck (#6 kata). I think we're looking at the same technique in the form. Dragon hand block with the left hand from an open hand guard position (right hand high/left hand middle) cat stance, move in with the open right hand moving past your opponent's face to set up for a cross knife hand to side of neck. This is a compound movement meaning as you set up for the cross knife hand, you are moving across the opponent's face, this is a lull in the action (if done this way) and telegraphs your move, so this becomes your claw to the face followed by the knife hand neck area, tiger mouth/leg hock takedown. SGM. Pesare, by the way, didn't care for the chicken wrist and felt that if you hit bone with it, say the head area, you could injure your hand. #1 comb. has the chicken wrist to the sied of head, temple, but this may have been passed on by Prof. Cerio (see NCK tech. "Sweeping Tiger" which is SKK #1). He told us once he mentioned this to GMM. Sonny Gascon when he was teaching him # 2 kata. He said Sonny Gas' answer to him was to beat him up using chicken wrists, lol. Of course, #1 comb. has the armlocks andgroundwork follow up that is not included in the form-front to knuck punch face/knife hand neck. SGM. Pesare kept the forms the way he was taught them but modified the combinations and replaced some of the originals.

    The #20 I got back around 1976 was more intricate then I see now. This way is really hard to follow when put in print. You would move back in a cat stance with both hands moving in circles toward you, then away as you slide forward from the cat. Your left hand would circle around the wrist (not the elbow as in #1) and lock/trap the wrist as you simultaneously strike with a driving knife hand to the sternum, then tiger mouth/leg hock takedown, then follow up with front two knuckle to face (like the eye socket) and spear hand poke throat. Mr. Villari also had taught it to us this way in some of the Black Belt workouts i attended back in 77, 78, etc. and Master John Fritz also. However, a friend of mine came out from Californai back in the 90's with a USSD (Mattera) manuel and it had been simplified w/ just a knife hand block and didn't have the intricate hand/foot coordination. Although, something like this may be too much of a complex motor skill for a practical punching attack, it would be useful as a trap and strike type movement against some single hand lapel type grabs. - Joe
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  20. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Al, I agree. Like we said earlier, the 'old guard' is on the same page. - Joe
     

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