Does anyone have any " Fred Villari" clips?

LOL! Well, I've seen footage of you moving Gary. Nuff said.

 

Dan you and John are only fooling yourselves and others. Please if you want to continue these comments we have to meet, simple.

Gary

 

The last time someone went to "Meet" with you, it was a joke. People can go to bullshido and look up gabster for the run down on what happened with that whole mess.

 

Hi Dan, I appreciate your honest opinion. Most of my 'in person' memories come from the black belt workouts and some demos (which I will touch on in my next post), then again Fred was younger and so wasn't my exposure to the arts, since I was nidan back then, so take it from there. However, my first exposure to Ed Parker, and don't get me wrong, I hold Mr. Parker's abilities in high regards, but the first time I saw him move was in the movie, "To Kill the Golden Goose" and it was not at all what I expected. I was disappointed and movies usually make you look even better than you are. Now, I'm not saying that was the norm but it was still Ed Parker. Also some of the guys mentioned, including Ed Parker imho, couldn't move as well as Fred Villari, given at the same age or close to it, as far as kicking ability demonstrated on that video. Yes, perhaps, kicking wasn't a strong part of their system but Fred did damn good for a 60 year old with those jump and spin kicks, especially with a back problem.

I don't know what portion you posted but I'm remembering the segments you and I used to talk about and agreed upon as impressive for anyone, not just USSD seniors, etc. and others you mentioned. Don't get me wrong, Dan, again, I appreciate your opinion on this and know you are being sincere. Some others you mentioned, I honestly can't comment on because I have not seen them demonstrate. I do have some old Gary Forback tapes but I haven't viewed them for many years and can't recall. I don't have them right now, I had lent them to someone.

Professor Chow....well, I enjoyed the film clip John posted as far as it's fluidity and it's kung fu flavor and what we call in SKK poison hand techniques, he was very graceful and was pretty up there in the years, in his 70's I believe. I was impressed in that sense but to be honest, I didn't fall off my chair either. I didn't want to say that when it was first discussed because it was Prof. Chow but I had expected a more powerful performance from the stories I had heard, a few others in pm's told me much of the same. Now, I don't take that clip as taking away from him by any means, it's just what he chose to perform.

Now, I have never commented on the other clip.....the Okinawan/Japanese form he did, but I wasn't impressed with that at all. I thought perhaps because it was the 60's and things were done dfferent then but after seeing the George Pesare DVD on the 60's, I now think not. Again, not saying at all that Chow wasn't one tough s.o.b ass kicker that one would not wish to meet in a dark alley, I think that stands undisputed, Ed Parker too, just commenting on the videos, sometimes they do a good martial artist an injustice and sometimes it's just the opposite.

Fighting ability? Who knows when it comes to the street who can take who. It's not even the same in the ring. I remember Ali saying when he was a teenager and boxing there was a kid who used to kick his ass every time they fought on the street. Ali talked him into stepping into the ring with him, on his turf, the kid did and Ali gave him an ass whooping. Go figure. Hey I got a personal post on things addressed to KempoFist, personal in the sense, things I never posted before. It's some good stuff, I think you'll enjoy it. Take care, Joe

 

Look, I don't like using these screen names when I'm having a serious correspondence with someone. If you don't mind, I'll take the liberty of only using your first name. This is one of my longer posts, lol, but it's for all the former SKK guys and gals who have had bad experiences. I have never posted some of this personal stuff in public before but I'm doing so in hopes it may be of help to some who are bummed out on kempo.

Jim, I was going to get down on your case a bit because of your attitude at times when it comes to certain topics in regards to kempo and our discussions, however, I did a lot of thinking because if I did, I would be a hypocrit. Jim, I had the exact same attitude as you for many years, maybe even worse, I don't know, about essentially what I perceive to be the same thing. From what I can tell and correct me if I'm wrong, you were with a Villari break away group in the N.Y. area, got fed up with the b.s. and left, probably with around the same rank and experience or close to it that I left with. You were born in '81 according to your profile, I left Villari's that year. You may have been a little younger than me when I left, you were probably under 25? I had just turned 29.

I know of two original Villari offshoots in the Long Island area, one is Tom Ingargliola, I like Tom, I feel he's a good man, respectful, a gentleman and a helluva fighter. I am familiar with his performance in the ring and his fight record also, he walks the walk. He's a serious and dedicated martial artist, a credit - 'the real deal'. I know it's not his organization so it is obviously the other. I just wanted to make that clear for anyone reading this it is not Tom's group.

Way back when, Fred began his idea for his super expansion plans. I was to tone down my classes, not be so hardcore in the training, as a matter of fact, not be hardcore at all. I had heard stories from some of my peers at the time that district managers were sent around to the schools and God forbid if they even saw your mirrors steamed up during or after a class! Yellow belt was added which, as the 'rebel' I was, refused to do, lol, because it was added for business reasons rather than to help the curriculum. Note: I finally added yellow but it was long after I left and not because of business reasons either. I was getting students who left some Villari and Villari offshoots who were yellow belts. I would let them wear it in class as a courtesy and then simply bring them up to my standard and then promote them to orange. Problem was, I got sick of hearing my original students' asking how come they have a yellow belt?, lol.

Anyway, I didn't like the direction the organization was heading. You would get reactions from some people when asked what school and you said, a United Studios of Self Defense (the original name of Fred's group) or a little later, around '80 or '81 (?) when it changed to Fred Villari's Studios of Self Defense. The reaction would be something like rolling their eyes back and saying: 'United Studios' in a disgusted way. It really sucked because many of us worked out extremely hard and were putting out quality students and fighters. We were dedicated martial artists, we weren't teaching to make a lucrative living per se, we didn't run it as a busienss, some of us had full time jobs. We wanted to be a positive and driving force in the legitimate propagation of Kempo Karate. Yes, some schools were mediocre and some substandard imho, I agree. This was true.

I equated things to restuarant franchises at the time, I don't mean the McDojo thing but this. On a trip coming back from Florida with my family we stopped at a Red Lobster Restuarant and it sucked. Now, everytime I saw one of these places open, I would say forget it, don't go. Finally, I did stop into another one to meet someone one day and low and behold, the food was great! Hey, different cook, different management and obviously, a much higher quality of food and service, same sign out front though. I thought, geez, someone could go to one of the schools in another community or state and get burned, then they move, drive through my area, see my sign and don't even give me a chance. Hense, my rationale for going independant - my own sign, my own name, that way myself and only myself is responsible as to what goes on in my school. So, I left. Did I leave sour grapes like you, Jim? Absolutely, as sour as one can get but for more of a reason I think.

A very close friend of my wife and I, who was in our wedding party, also assisted me at my school. We were tight. He wanted to become a full feldged partner. I really needed a partner too, because I just got appointed full time on the Police Dept. and I felt if I had someone who had a vested interest in the school, they would be dedicated to do things right when I couldn't be there. My friend was a highly talented black belt but he had some very, very serious credit problems, including repos and so forth and wanted to go into a partnership with me. I had a few problems with him at the school as he sometimes bought things on the school's credit and didn't pay up and I'd get hit with the collectors. Anyway, I kept blowing him off when he would ask me. At the same time, he knew I wanted to give up the franchise and he kept pushing me strongly to do so. I mean strongly. You probably know where I'm going with this, lol. He would badmouth Fred and tell me how we don't need him, f... Fred, blah, blah, blah. Now, I put him soley in charge of the school as I had to go live in for three months training at the Massachusetts State Police Academy.

While I was away, he began to have secret pow wows with many of the students, telling them that I was losing the Villari franchise. He would tell them Fred said if I gave it up, I would close down in three months without him and they wouldn't have a school. (In all due respect to Mr. Villari, he did say that about anyone who left him back then-the three month thing). My friend, also behind my back, was negotiating with Fred to take my franchise over and open up across town. That was low, wasn't it? I graduate from the S.P's, come back and inform Fred I'm giving up my franchise. It was done very professionally and as a credit to Fred, he could have kept me from teaching for five years within a 15 mile radius according to my attorney doing the transaction. It was a legit, franchise agreement I had signed. My friend disappeared and avoided me. He ended up taking a group of the students who were gullible enough to believe him (some later came back or tried to, I only took one back for my own reasons). Anyway, my buddy ended up stiffing Fred. Fred demanded he take down the sign and rightfully so but he wouldn't until Fred sent some of his guys to his school to take it down! I want to say C.M. was one of them but I'm not sure. He re-opened under another name but he ended up getting his car and boat repo'd and his landlord was taking him to court along with others, he shut down, what students he had left were out on their ear. His entire life span when he left me was about 5 years.

Years later he had some serious problems and came to me for help. We had very long talk. He told me he regretted what happened but did it because I wouldn't take him in as a partner. I explained about him being a serious credit risk to me and I had pristine credit and didn't want it compromised. He totally understood and agreed. I helped him out and we put the past behind us. So, Jim, for many years I was bitter with my friend BUT Fred too and I sounded much like you. However, our difference may be the following and I want to emphasize this, I found no fault what-so-ever on what I was taught and how I was trained. My original kempo instructor was Hanshi Craig Seavey who has an excellent reputation in the martial arts world. Just ask around. My kempo worked for me just fine, yes, I taught my own way, modified a few things to my liking, added some stuff that I thought was appropiate and functional. I had my H.S. "Letter" in wrestling and I had learned the rudiments of boxing in college, when combined with my kempo worked out quite well in these earlier years.

Over the years, I thought about things and no matter how I cut it, despite any negative experiences, it was Fred Villari who was responsible for a lot of positive things in my life. I met and studied under SGM. S. George Pesare whom I'm still wth today. I met and studied under the late Prof. Nick Cerio. Hanshi Craig Seavey who was the co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo before he went independant, used to run the Villari school I first studied under and groomed me to black belt and beyond. He sponsered me to Fred for my shodan in 1977. Craig became one of my closest and most trusted friends, it's now been 34 years since I first met him. Hell, I met Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin in 1994 at Bruce Corrigan's school in Virginia and I knew Bruce, who became another close friend of mine long before that. Later, I personally met Mike Rash through the KGS BBS and we became good friends. There are other long lasting relationships I have also developed from these early beginnings.

In 1985, the Chief of Police sent me to a specialized school and appointed me as the head training coordinator a short time later because of my m.a. background. A got another part time job teaching for the Massahusetts Criminal Justice Training Council and was giving a seat on the board of directors of one of the police academies. These things would have never occurred if not for my earlier beginnings , my start with Fred. It was Fred who pulled strings to get me the Milford school in 1978 which I still have today! I was young and couldn't afford the asking price at the time and had to walk away from the deal. There were three owners and they wanted to walk away with a three way split. Fred intervened and got me the school for a grand! I asked me how he did it because the wouldn't budge and I swear to you, he told me this, he said with a smile: "I made them an offer they couldn't refuse". Hey, I don't know if he was kidd'n or not and I don't want to know either, lol.

Nick Cerio once sat me down and told me it was Fred Villari who gave me my identity (through Craig Seavey also) and to never forget that, he said just like George Pesare gave him his. I read a post years ago KenpoJoe Rebelo wrote in defending Fred about the many fine and highly talented veteran black belts of today who can trace their beginnings to Fred Villari. I thought about all this. Not too long ago, I bumped into a brown belt from my early years when I first opened the Milford school. Villari's name came up and he was shocked because I had positive things to say for he remembered me when I was bitter. Yes, I had said some things before that I have regretted. We had a long talk over a few beers and he understood. By the way, a lot of the changes Fred was making back then are now the norm in the vast majority of the schools today in general, all styles and systems, most of it brought on for liability reasons and student retention as more and more instructors are attempting to make a living from teaching.

Throughout the years I learn, the yellow belt was adopted by Ed Parker before Fred Villari and for business reasons also. Now, just about everyone uses it. Many of the vehement Villari critcis of the 70's did the same thing as far as self promotion and so forth. Fred just sh_t in his own backyard and was easily traced. He trained in Rhode Island, worked in Waltham, Massachusetts (Polaroid Corp.) and set up shop, first in Waltham then in Dedham as he expanded throughout New England and later Canada. Not to mention, he came right out in Black Belt magazine and said, essentially, yes, I promoted myself to 10th in my system. His contempories and seniors, not just in Kempo but in other arts as well, had left their instructors at either the same rank as Fred (he was a nidan but did not complete a one year probation Cerio had put on him), a shodan or an underbelt and went on to evolve themselves and create their own thing too. Good for them. That was more the norm way back when then the exception.

Jim, maybe the guy who headed you organization didn't do that much for you, I don't know but he did give you your start, I assume, your identity and what you do with that identity is totally up to you. You moved on to BJJ, that's good. I'm learning the rudiments also so I can add it to my curriculum. I hope by sharing this stuff with you, that you can come to more of an understanding with your negative experiences like I have. Like I said, I was just like you and it wasn't that long ago either. I carried it around with me for a long time.

PS: About the videos, like, I said I haven't seem all the Villari videos, just what I mentioned and I stand by my opinion. I have seen Gm. Villari doing demos at tournaments over the years, some were outstanding, two I was somewhat disappointed with. Once some of my students built up my ego at a tournament telling me they thought I was faster than Fred, lol, I was a nidan at the time. This one was a good demo but I've seen him do better. However, and let me stress this, I never saw him anything less but totally impressive at the black belt workouts he had for us way back when, he never had a bad day during these. If you ever paired off with him, you'd remember.....

Take care & be safe, Joe

 

Well Dan the joke is you, I show up and we had a good time and discussion you are the one who is a no show, similar to John.

The only problem was afterwards Dan had to try and impress and say things that were different, typical coward stuff. Just like you are doing now.

Gary

 

Let me know the next time you're down my way and I'll meet with you. I'll bring my own video camera.

 

Post #25

Joe,
I'm surpiized that you don't have writers cramp after your last post.

 

Joe, thank you for that story (and use my name, full name, whatever you want. I have nothing to hide ). Quite an interesting read from a behind the scenes view of the Villari/USSD franchise. Although I sympathize with your situation, and respect how you've handled it and where you are now, I just disagree on your views on your training, and as you say you felt the way I do back then, I can say I felt the way you do now a few years back. I considered myself to be rationalizing my wasted time, and I was blurring the line between good training and bad training by just taking that "more tools to your toolbox" attitude I hear touted by martial artists of various backgrounds. Tools are only good to have in your toolbox if they are useful, if not you're just lugging around wasteful junk that slows you down and hinders your growth.

You should put fault in how you were trained if it was like the stuff in that video. And this is not a criticism of Villari's execution of the techniques or anything like that. I couldn't care less if he was doing those moves at 60, or if Anderson Silva was doing them now (with lots of extra snap to his movements, and a loud "kiah!" to boot) It is still grossly impractical, and to be quite honest unusable to anyone of any kind. Sparring hard, having hard workouts and all that is great, and will help anyone become a better fighter, but wasting time doing those pre-choreographed techniques is NOT something I will turn a blind eye to, just in the name of protecting my ego which does not want to see that time and money go in vain.

If that's what you want to do, that's your prerogative, but don't expect everyone to just accept their crappy training, and then supplement it with rudimentary boxing and wrestling and still call it the original albeit your reinterpretation. Fred Villari was just another car on the perpetual train wreck that is modern day Ke?po in the US. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hi Jim, thank you for your response and Al C., you're right, I am getting cramps in my fingers today, lol, but back to Jim. I do agree with you somewhat but perhaps I didn't express myself the way I should have. I believe most, if not all valid martial arts systems can work if the training is done properly. I don't teach the 'pre-sets' (choreographed techniques) as actual self defense techniques that have to be used in a specific sequence. I use them as exercises in motion or movement, hand/foot coordination, movement/balance. They are simply training aids, just like cardio and weight lifting, push ups and body crunches, jumping rope, heavy bag, etc. are all used. They are not the exact response to any assault situation. I teach the idea behind the techniques, the concepts, which sometimes some can't see unless they are either pointed out or they come to you as you dig deeply into them. Do some have to be modified, yes, do you eliminate some that you don't like, yes, that's the tailoring done in kempo. I use what I was taught as a foundation in order to build my perspective on how I feel things should be. I train my students to have reflexive conditioned responses to stimuli.

For instance, any club technique, just as a simple example, I teach as if you are defending against a strong Korean high kicker. You may step to another plain initially to avoid the attack of say, a baseball bat and try to escape but if you goal is to disarm, then you most get inside him and or simply close enough to kiss your attacker on the cheek. As you initially rush in, it may be with a strong forearm and then close combat skills and/or takedown, actually my experience is the dude will go down from the force of you rushing in at him with the forearm, yet most videos (in all arts) will show the guy still standing as you follow up and take him down, etc. This is what I teach and when you use it in reality, you move in more looking like a football player than a Chuck Norris movie or training video. Have I used this on the street, yes, and have it documented several times in police use of force reports (and criminal reports for court) over the years.

Another point being, here's what seperates the videos and the levels of what we preceive as who looks better in movement and so forth must be the better on the street - no, not neccessarily at all. Many demos, seminars and tapes stress complex and fine motor skills which do not have their place in a high stress situation, in other words - the street, they just don't work no matter who you are. You are essentially left with gross motor skills and your basics, basics applied with speed, power and accuracy. This is why with all the damn 'caught on tape' videos on the internet and television, you never see a martial arts practitioner or master perform like what is witnessed on these videos and at seminars and in most dojos in real life assaults and why? because it just doesn't happen. You would think something would have surfaced by now. I found that many martial artists avoid talking about this (present company excluded) simply because it hurts business and their profession, their identity and what they profess to the public. They (I'm not saying all, but many) make money teaching seminars of advanced techniques, complex and fine motor skills but they have no or little use on the street. It just doesn't happen. No one can produce a video of anyone of any mastery or even a black belt, shodan, doing any advanced material that we all tend to grade them on, in any a real life situtation in any art. If someone has any master we have mentioned on this thread doing this, please show me. I ask, with all the cameras out there and everything being caught on tape, why not? Again, because it simply doesn't happen. Boxing does very well on the street because of it's stress on the basics and gross motor skills, limited basic movements drilled over and over again for speed, power and accuracy. Even skilled boxers aren't as smooth as they are on the street as they are in the ring.

Okay, there may be some hapless but obnoxious drunk that one could make anything work on, or maybe some big mouth buffoon who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag that one could toy with but I'm talking a worthy opponent in a serious situation, isn't that what it's all about? I wouldn't any more teach a student to use a pre-set on the street as I would teach them to use a kata on the street. Is kata a training aid? In my younger years I thought it was a waste but now I see it as another piece of the overall picture, not an end all as some traditonlists feel but something that if understood and practiced properly can help.

My friend who is also in BJJ told me they teach techniques done initially against a passive uke just like in kempo so as to teach the different submissions and escapes and once they get a handle on it, then the resistance and they go free style. I don't know about all the other kempo schools but we do the same with our self defense. Does it look as pretty as the choreographed stuff or as all these videos do? No, not at all but it's totally aggressive, hard hitting, practical and gets the job done. He also told me that there is much of BJJ purely designed for sport and would not be functional or practical in a street situation but obviously, there was some great moves that can be incorporated and/or adapted into street defense. Jim, this is how I teach. I'm a cop and I still work the streets and we have a lot of problems with violence out here but I do it because I want to, I couldn't stand an inside adminstrative job sitting behind a desk. My training has to be practical and functional simply because it's called into play on a fairly regular basis, I can't hide, lol. Many martial arts instructors go their entire career or lifetime and never, ever use it.

I saw two karate guys caught on video with excellent results with just the basics, you probably saw them too. One was a cop, a black belt who was a defensive tactics police instructor. He was taking a group of cops into a building for in-service training when a pimp starting roughing up one of his girls. He went to her aid and intervened. The pimp decided to take him on. The cop took a stance and when the pimp moved in caught him nicely with a speed backfist off his lead to the temple, similiar to what Lee used against Wall in Enter the Dragon. Result-K.O. This was on the net and t.v. Another was two young guys in a beef over something. The martial artist took a rather long stance and appeared to be from a Japanese system. At first sight, you didn't know if he was just bluffing or not. They danced around for a bit exchanging some blows, nothing intricate or really connecting, then the 'karate kid' catches him with a nice solid reverse punch to the jaw. Results: Lights out-a K.O.

That's about all I have seen except the William Chueng fight, Chueng, master's skill in Wing Chun I think we could all agree? His seminar was crashed by, I think his name was Boztepi (sp.?) or do I have it mixed up with something else, anyway, I think we all saw that video at one time or another and I saw no Wing Chun there! Respectfully, Joe

 

Motor Skills Classification
Motor Skills is a fancy name for physical actions or techniques. They can be divided into three categories:



Fine Motor Skills - are actions involving small muscles, dexterity and eye-hand coordination. The ability to perform fine motor skills deteriorates at low to moderate levels of stress.

Complex Motor Skills - are actions that link three or more components in a sequence that requires timing and coordination. At moderate to high levels of stress, the ability to perform these skills is also impaired. Many martial arts techniques are complex motor skills. This explains why techniques that may work fine in low-stress training fail in a high-stress street-fight.

Gross motor skills - are simple, large-muscle group actions like a squats, pushups and push/pull-type movements. This includes basic fighting skills like a straight punch, a hook punch or a Thai boxer's knee strike for example. Unlike fine and complex motor skills, gross motor skills DO NOT deteriorate under stress. In fact, they are enhanced by the affects of fear and stress.
Obviously we want to rely predominantly on gross motor skills when designing a self-defense response system.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Joe,

I should have mentioned the fact is that if we were to use the type of destructive punching power and hard hits to people now we/you would be in the clink, police or not. I should have mentioned that.

I am into locks and submit rather than beating someone up. But if it takes the hard core stuff of old, then so be it.

I like the stuff of Walter Godin and Pitmaster for striking and learning not to get taken down. But, the strikes are supreme that is for sure.
*********
Jim, true some of the stuff you certainly can not use, but like the 13 strikes of the USMC, they are there for damage and now, if you really need them.
Striking precisely and to the location you want to hit, takes practice and does not come from just hitting a bag. Though they are great (bags), so is slow practiced hitting to locations on a persons body. I am not into sparing much anymore, but if need be (fight) I am ready to go all out (why I train 3 times a week or more). I just got back from a 2 hour session.

If you use strikes, hand, elbows and knees, hard throws and kicks, if it is not reasonable, you are the one hitting the bucket. Trapping is great also, along with the submits.

Grappling has its place but not in hard core fighting situations. The ring is one thing, asphalt and concrete is another. Training for both is good.

Honest.

Gary

 

Gary, good post. I agree and I totally understand Jim's perspective also. At one time early on in kempo I took a look at techniques (and that's any kempo style) and said WTF? BUT that was my problem, I looked AT them, later I learned to look THROUGH them. I broke them down into their elements, bits and pieces and found most techniques, even the so-called advanced are simple basics strung together in continuous motion. NOW, when a so-called advanced technique crosses the line from simple basics tied together and evolves into an intricate movement requiring complex and fine motor skills, well, like I said in my previous posts, it becomes impractical and non-funtional in stress situations. It just doesn't work.

Gary, you don't know the techniques in SKK so you may not completely follow me on this one but Jim will. So, if you have any questions just e-mail me. Jim, here's what I mean by looking through a technique rather than at it and how I would use it in stress situations. Take SKK's #1 combination which is essentially the same as NCK's "Sweeping Tiger". Now, go to the tiger claw rake across the face area which returns back as a chicken wrist to the temple or side of the head. (SKK #6 kata has a variation of it too but uses a returning knife hand to side of neck). This concept is similiar to Mr. Parker's 'reverse motion' principle or Kung Fu's concept that 50 per cent of it's techniques work in reverse. I used the same concept learned in this combination for close combat situations such as grabs, I mean actually used it when I had to on the job. I allow myself the substitution of the personal body weapons of my choice but still adhere to the same concept. In other words, I like a hard right forearm to the head or jaw, turning my waist for full power all the way counter-clockwise to my left (waist-wind it up like a spring) and then return it to the target (unload the spring) as a driving elbow to the head or solar plexus. Powerful technique. I also use a claw or hard slap to the head returning as a long backfist back to the head or face. All this based on #1.

Now, pull apart the takedown (leg hock) in combination #1, I have used that countless times over my career to take someone down for cuffing who is actively resisting and trying to mess me up. I may not have used the whole combination together because that would be trying to do a prearranged technique but as Ed Parker had said: "Kenpo is formulated as encounters occur". - I think best describes this. You will come out with hybrid movements or techniques, a little bit of this and that flowing together through action without thought, reflexive conditioned responses through muscle memory.... rather than through thought (the brain) which would cause hesitation. I'm sure we all agree 'thinking' per se, slows you down. It is not always the ideal technique that works for a particular attack but the SPONTANEOUS technique that has a better chance of working. Thinking of what to use (hesitation) gets you hurt. Concepetual thinking is different. A lunatic comes at you with a tire iron or bat. Immediately you know, you don't really think but you know, that first, to avoid contact, you can step to another plane and escape, run..... or if you must disarm him, you know you have to be in close enough to bite his nose. These red flags immediately go up as your mind perceives the bat/tire iron threat and you react accordingly and instantly.

Another technique I thought I would have never used was back around, maybe, the early to mid 80's. So, I was probably around a 3rd dan. #11 combination. I took in this rowdy, obnoxious guy, he wasn't really drunk just an a-hole giving people a hard time in a coffee shop. Initially, he put up some 'passive' resistance (resistive tension) but that was about it. I go to take the cuffs off him and he backs up a little and throws this goofy front kick toward me. I just slightly drew back to avoid it, he landed right on his ass, I didn't even touch him but when he did land, his right leg momentarily stayed in the air (similiar to the grab and takedown in #11). Instinctively, I didn't even think about it, I grabbed his right foot, did the clockwise ankle twist so now he's proned out on his stomach, stepped on his back by his kidney area and pulled back on the leg into what we used to call the back breaker/submission. It would put extreme pressure on the lower back/spine area. He immediately knocked off the b.s. and I escorted him to the cell without further incident and believe me, I was just as surprised as him, but just didn't show it, lol.

Kenpo/Kempo techniques, the pre-sets, can be looked at as diamonds in the rough or even a piece of coal for that matter but once the principles and concepts are thoroughly understood and speed, power and accuracy is applied, you have an effective system. Problem is, many don't stay in one system long enough to make these things happen. I have cross trained but for the brunt of my training I always stayed within my New England Kempo direct lineage of Pesare-Cerio-Villari roots. I have had friends who have jumped around too much, and never really fully developed their stuff IMHO. They keep looking for the magic pill when the magic has always been within them all along. I have heard others say, in reality, Prof. Chow did not look pretty fighting at all BUT was highly effective. I have some friends that are very traditional and adhere to the Japanese Shotokan stances and so forth. They see a Pesare/Villari/Cerio guy or a EPAK guy using the neutral type fighting stances in a form and they say may say weak stances for they are tied down, to what Lee called the 'classical mess', they are more concerned with the aesthetic appearance of the 'art' than it's reality application in today's streets. When I was first with SGM. Pesare in the late 70's. I remember a friend of mine who still teaches in Rhode Island, John Levesque, helluva martial artist, a brown belt at the time, got a kickboxing match with traditionalist Hidy Ochia, who was billed at the time as 5 or 6 times World Kata Champion. I was at ringside. Ochiai had some good/impressive traditonal moves in an attempt to avoid and counter Levesque in the beginning. It was obvious, aesthetically, Ochai was the man in that ring but John moved in with a quick good old Amercian Kempo (Pesare) hand combination bringing Ochiai's head down. Levesque followed quickly with a front kick to the face and broke his nose for a TKO. My gut feeling was that John would have been the victor be it on the street hands down also but you never know. My point is, the main concern of the martial arts, from my perspective, my opinion, is soley for street survival and every thing else is purely secondary and that is why my sign says Milford Studio of Self Defense. Okay, fingers are getting cramped again, lol. With respect, Joe

 

Wow, that was a lot. I think you could have made your point in far fewer words, but I'll tip my hat and say that I think you've removed any room for misinterpretation.

I have an article I wrote for my schools Kempo website when I was still teaching and trying to reform the curriculum a bit to make it well...usable, and it seems to parallel your take on Kempo techniques much the same way. I'm gonna have to go on my old hard drive and dig it up, I think you'd find it somewhat interesting.

For now though, I'd like to address some points.

You say these moves will never work, but then....well why teach them in such a way? Why grade belts in such a way? What is the benefit of practicing an impractical technique -albeit one with perhaps some useful components- when you could just use it's parts and make live drills out of them, and then grade belts on a students proficiency at executing those drills live?

It is very true that BJJ teaches moves compliantly initially. But that doesn't mean they they don't seek to apply them full speed. That is but the first stage of the I-Method of teaching techniques. Matt Thornton in a seminar once said that many martial arts instructors of various systems claim that the techniques they teach are only practiced initially slow or compliantly (like in BJJ) but eventually you do them full speed and full contact....but you never see it. Finally after years of training and still not being able to do it, the laundry list of excuses comes out as to why not (too dangerous, not being a high enough BB yet etc....).

As I said, I don't think this applies to you, and you seem to hold a similar training philosophy with your techniques that I used to use, and I'm gonna have to find that article; but with all due respect, I feel I've outgrown even that, and that I was just making do with the situation, wasting time with those techniques when we could have cut out the fluff and just got down to training.

 

I think it depends on which combinations you're talking about. Boxers use combination that they practice in shadow boxing, bag work and sparring. They repeat these combinations over and over until they are reflexive. Do they have to deviate from them in the ring? Sure they do. Opponents don't always fight the way you think they will or would like them to, but they do use those long practiced combos in the ring. The ingraining of muscle memory is very important for the reflexes to take over when the body and mind are under stress. But here's the problem with many of today's martial arts: 1) the combinations taught are unrealistic and thus unusable in a real situation or 2) they are not practiced to the point where they are reflexive and effective they way a boxer's are. It's the problem with many martial arts, especially those designed to fight against certain kinds of opponents that one might not encounter in today's world.

 

Joe, where is combination 1 in Kata 6? I don't even see a loose interpretation of it...I can see a loose interpretation of 20, but 1? Nope. So, where is it? Besides isn't this a thread about FV clips?

 

I was just watching an interview with John Hackleman where he was talking about how he coaches Liddell from the side of the Octagon. He said that they have numbered, pre-set combinations and techniques and Hackleman will call out a number and Lidell will execute it. He said that Lidell can always hear him even over the roar of the crowd etc. He also said that he keeps exactly what those numbers mean a secret so that his opponents won't know what to defend against.

 

Hi Dan,

Was that interview on tv, or is it a video that is around on utube???

Guf, the clips that you put on, are they you doing the video?

Gary

 

It was on the new Chuck Lidell dvd that came out a couple of days ago.

 

Nope. Not I.

Here's a video preview with FV doing things

http://karateevents.com/events/cc20...ew&PHPSESSID=1554be6e76b3d722c759f28525480846