Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

I would definitely agree that realistic training can develop a tougher attitude in someone who might have been a bit of a wimp previously. There's a lot to be said for taking the plunge with a rougher style and realising that, as Koyo used to put it, you are not made of glass.

 

However, those can be the people who benefit, physically and psychologically, from martial arts training. I think the "take a fighter and make him into a champion" attitude works for a relatively small number of pro combat sports. For most people "take someone who knows nothing and give them some fight" is a more useful thing.

 

SD does not cultivate the same physical attributes as learning to fight in a different way to sports fighting because on a fundamental level it is the same. You dont throw punches , for example ,fundamenatly, differently. Thats part of the con. The difference is physcologicaly. There is no special way to use your body for SD than learning to fight for sport. Suddenly there is a different way to move when its SD? Thats total nonsense.

The other attributes (awareness,avoidence) dont take degrees or ranks in SD to understand and apply to whatever physicaly ability you have. Some people might need certain things pointed out to them, but its not a big deal to do. It doesnt take a degree in SD.

Sport came out of war. A way to train when not fighting. You fight back. You dont 'do' SD. And like I said, theres is only one way to move fundamentaly and its its the same no matter what the situation or enviroment.

 

The only things you need to do in life are those that keep you alive.

The question really should be, should we learn self defence.

For me, prevention is always better than the cure.

 

When I start seeing professional fighters in their respective competitions throwing wild haymakers, windmilling, push-punching, grab punching, headbutting, attacking in pairs, in pincer movements and engaging in pre fight posturing and abuse etc I'll be happy to agree with you. Training to deal with professional high quality fighting techniques does not automatically make you better at dealing with HAOV at close range, because the movements and telegraphs differ. The similarities lie in the fighting tactics used to defend or pre-emptively attack as a defender, but the attacks you are likely to face in each are different.

You get good at what you train for. That doesn't mean there aren't overlaps between disciplines.

So fighting back against somebody trying to hurt you isn't SD?

There's only one way to move fundamentally? There's a limited number of ways the human body can move, which provides a huge array of possibilities, which is why there are so many martial arts styles. There's a limited number of ways that human beings move when they're not in full control of themselves, which is why fights that professional boxers sometimes have at weigh ins look nothing like their skilled bouts in the ring and more like two ordinary guys outside a club.

 

Not if it's in a controlled environment, and no real danger involved.

 

interesting way of looking at it. I would have to say that even though my particular MA I am taking is based around SD, I am more and more unlikely to use it. No matter what a person's training is, if they were attacked, or put in the wrong position in which they felt like they might be, training would instantly come to mind IMO anyway. Anytime you do something over and over again it's muscle memory and instinct. Some guys take it with the intention of they want to see it work, but for me it was the same thing as when I bought my first handgun. At first you just think it's a good idea for home protection and that it will be cool to go shoot and such... which is fine. For me though, once I got it home you realize the responsibility that you have just brought home with you and what it can do if not used properly. Hopefully other people have this sort of mindset as well when it comes to their particular MA.

 

Not necessary per se, but nice to know. Being good with a gun is generally more effective as SD. But if you find yourself unarmed or generally in a bad spot, SD and martial arts in general help out.

This guy scared off a thug who assaulted him to steal a phone-
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/l...nd-off-would-be-cellular-phone-thief-1.115549

 

A gun is not always an appropriate use of force.

 

Well that would depend. A lot of MA are about as useful as a chocolate teapot when it comes to addressing the breadth of self defence.

 

that might be so with some, but any art that teaches how to punch and kick can and will be more effective than knowing nothing at all. Even an untrained person can hit you with a lucky punch, but in MA where accuracy, repetitiveness, technique etc are all taught you WILL have an advantage over any of untrained person out there looking to attack you.

This is all, of course, being able to keep a cool head under pressure obviously.

 

A gun is used when you have someone else attempting to use one on you or when you fear for your life. This is IMO and is what I live by.

 

Which sort of goes with what I said doesn't it?

A gun is not always an appropriate use of force. There will be SD situations which do not require deadly force.

Bringing that type of force to bear in those instances will stand a good chance of escalating the situation unnecessarily or landing you in jail.


On top of all that you need to be able to articulate your reasoning behind your choice. "I feared for my life" isn't going to cut it if circumstances or others say contrary.

 

Yet what you describe is only a small part of the self defence equation.

There are few MA that train the whole spectrum of what you need for good SD training, even fewer traditionally based ones.

So knowing how to strike is not really enough and only being able to strike poorly puts you in a worse off position because dealing with one small element and doing it badly leaves you with nothing useful.

There are a few hard men in my neighbourhood and I'd bet they have sod all training but if you disregard them you are in trouble, they know the game and how to come out on top.

One in particular who I had dealings with lined me up just as I was doing the same to him, no training just experience of real violence on his part.

 

I was referring to this comment:

My point being that war and human conflict, ultimately have origins in people attacking other people and people defending themselves. Various martial sports are codified forms of elements of those traditions as are various martial arts. Sport fighting isn't SD though it can develop skills which are useful for SD. Think of martial arts, combative sports and SD as three overlapping circles in a venn diagram.

If I want to get better at avoiding getting into fights and my choice is between
A. Non contact fighting sport
B A contact fighting sport
C No contact SD club
D Full contact SD club
I'd most likely recommend D. Why not C? Because D is more likely to offer more realistic and practical advice, but C would be my second choice.

If I want to get better at fighting for a non contact competitive fighting arena and my choice is between:
A. Non contact fighting sport
B A contact fighting sport
C No contact SD club
D Full contact SD club
I'd recommend A.

If I want to get better at fighting for a contact competitive fighting arena and my choice is between:
A. Non contact fighting sport
B A contact fighting sport
C No contact SD club
D Full contact SD club
I'd recommend B.

If I want to get better at the combative side of SD and my choice is between:
A. Non contact fighting sport
B A contact fighting sport
C No contact SD club
I'd recommend B and advise on some reading and supplementary training.

If I want to get better at the combative side of SD and my choice is between:
A. Non contact fighting sport
B A contact fighting sport
C No contact SD club
D Full contact SD club
I'd recommend D.

 

dp

 

so a muay thai student who has trained for a year or 2 is going to make things worse for themselves in an altercation vs joe bigmouth blow then?

 

No but that's because it is a full contact, hard tested and fight proven style. The vast majority cannot lay claim to such a pedigree