Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Simon, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well I presumed it came as read that your environment affects your psyche.

    My point, if you're referring to the one I think you are, was echoed by Hannibal: that some people will default to being a nob no matter what training you throw at them. On the flip-side, I have seen people de-escalate situations by being a bigger nob than the nob acting aggressively toward them, some people back down after being out-barked. There is also a cultural aspect - not all cultures will respond the same to physical or verbal cues. There are just so many ways to skin this cat, unless you have professional protocols to follow I feel it is something you have to find your own way in, outside of learning to spot cues etc.

    Your point was a good one too though :)
     
  2. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    Well yeah, some people are gonna be nobs no matter how well-trained they are. Maturity does not come with age by default. But those aren't the people you're trying to reach in a RBSD class. In fact, you're actively trying to screen them out, which minus a criminal record is pretty hard to do. Apparently some of the "experts" in microfacial expressions say one can become proficient at spotting deception in about an hour of Youtube training though, so the instructors should be studying up.
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Only an hour huh? I never knew it was so easy! ;)

    But maybe this is where some of the divergence of opinion comes from, I don't teach a RBSD class. I don't train nobs either, but your temperament, largely influenced by upbringing, will dictate the tactics you feel comfortable in applying. I've known people with hearts of gold who can out-aggress aggressors to peaceful ends, and who am I, with different ways of acting and different life experiences, to tell them that they have got it wrong? It's just a different approach, and as long as they generally act like a decent human being, I have no problem with that. I'm not a fan of "industry-standard" approaches in general, as I find them to be in the "designed by committee" class of training - I prefer to allow people the opportunity to play to their strengths and become creative in applying them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It is....and for only 49.99 I will share those secrets with you!
     
  5. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I was going to write a longish reply about self defence and Self protection being mainly about marketing and business and offering an easy route to those unwilling to learn to fight, there being no substitute to being able to fight in a more violent way than the person attacking you, but I thought what's the point as most people have fallen for the S D and S P nonsense already.
    I know I fell for it at one point.
    I don't think S D it's needed but an understanding of violence and violent encounters is,it's just knowing what info to trust to get this understanding if people are not naturaly violent or around violence. You can make money by offering an answer that's easy and not as challenging where as you make less money by offering the more difficult and challenging answer.
     
  6. Kuniku

    Kuniku The Hairy Jujutsuka

    It depends who you're having to protect yourself against, but in all the times I've had to defend myself, bar two, I've not had to be more violent than the other person, especially since I've started jujitsu. Those two times were both group encounters, one I had been phoned up to help break up a potential fight, I left work to go to this party where about 15 lads had turned up to spoil the fun, and it was one of those chest to chest stare offs, I turned up, asked someone who their ring leader was and dropped him with a head kick, tad excessive considering there was no violence until that point, but luckily once the ringleader was down his friends had no interest and picked him up and they all left. I was only about 16-17 and didn't really know better, now I imagine I would've handled it differently
     
  7. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    You're talking about Asocial situations only. Where there's 'no choice' but for you to act and use violence. These represent about 1% of the time.

    The rest of the situations you find yourself in are Anti-Social in nature. You don't 'necessarily' have to use violence to sort those out.

    They can though be made worse (into an Asocial situation) or made better by the actions etc of all parties present. Escalation or De-escalation of potential violence.

    I had to 'defend' myself last week. Some Knobbius Jockius - backed up with a few friends - decided to plow into me with 'people's elbow number 1'. And then tried to front up to me.

    Did I immediately beat his face in? And then give the rest of his mates a clatching?

    Nope I just smirked, shook head. Then walked away.

    Of course if he'd been really serious my smirk would have violently enraged him. But he was just being a div. So strike one up for a bit of commonsense. Choose your battles no?

    Did I want to beat him to a pulp. Honestly? Yes. Why? Because I like fighting.

    But Did I? No. Why? Because as a reasonably intelligent person (well...) I know that violence is fundamentally twp, daft, stoopid.

    Choose your battles no?

    True an understanding of violence etc is needed. And most people intuitively understand it. They don't need lessons to get it.

    Understanding the true effects of adrenaline and duress yes. Now that's a different kettle o fish.

    But your granny and grandad understand violence. After all they're likely to have lived through more of it than you. Not just interpersonal, but social upheaval, unrest etc. After all if most folk you know are still alive now. And they're at an older age. Then they must have done something right.

    What's wrong with making money doing something well? What's wrong with earning a good wage by showing people more efficient practices? Do you expect to learn as much as you want for free?

    Whether something is deemed 'self-defence', 'martial arts', 'fighting' I don't expect my teachers to do it for nowt. All their earnt skill took time and effort. That's what I'm paying them for. Just like the carpenter, the baker or indeed the marketer...
     
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    No one should need self defence instructors to tell them not to fight when it's not needed or how to not get into fights. That's common sense or just being a well balance, sound, sensible person. If a person does struggle in that area it's maybe confidence in general that needs to be sorted and that is personal responsibility not something brought from a self defence guru.

    If violence was instinct why do people fall for the things a lot of people teach that's nonsense and won't work. An understanding gives an ability to look at something being shown or said and judge it as nonsense or not.

    But a carpenter or builder will not or should not get away with doing shoddy work that's not up to standard or regulations.
     
  9. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    A lot of people seek guidance from martial arts/ self-defence instructors. Who MAY be more qualified to show them how to deal with certain situations that may arise.

    Amazing all the sensible, sound, well-balanced people who end up 'getting in to it' - sometimes seemingly against their sound sensibleness...

    This is called the effects of adrenaline.

    It's not logical. But then emotion, adrenaline etc are not logical. And IF you're unaware of the effects of adrenaline. Or little experience dealing with it then you'll come a cropper.

    The potential to do violence is instinctual. Your granny can easily stab someone to death if she needs to. Nobody needs to show her how to do that.

    But a lot of folk feel they need 'answers', organisation, systemised approaches to the effects, use and doing of said violence. These are called martial arts.

    Martial arts and self-defence are objective and subjective. Tanglible and intangible. There are loads of systems I think are pants. Does that mean they should immediately stop teaching because of my opinion?

    The first time I saw Harimau Silat, Bagua, Taiji etc I thought they were stupid, ridiculous and indeed nonsense. Same goes for Target Focus Training, Tony Blauer's Spear, R Dmitri's The Shredder, Brazilian JJ etc. Should I still judge them as 'nonsense'.

    Basically here's the whittled down bit:

    Some people 'fearing' or subject to potential violence seek answers to their 'problems'. By learning from martial arts/ self-defence teachers.

    Some of whom are doing people a disservice. Buyer beware.

    But does anyone actually need to learn self-defence. Be that in a 'martial arts system'. Or maybe as a separate 'self-defence' training. My view as a man is yes absolutely.

    Glib end statement. Does a painter need to learn to paint? Or should they just slap about with a brush etc for a few years?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  10. friendly_energy

    friendly_energy New Member

    the way i see it is like this.

    never get yourself into a false sense of security just because everything seems to be going right. because one day it might go straight to the crappers without warning.

    i recall in one of the earlier posts of this thread on the first few pages, somebody compared self defense to a jack.

    364 days you might not need it at all but... that 1 day might happen where
    you get stuck in the middle of nowhere with that flat tire. and you are happy for not forgetting it and leaving it at home.

    self defense is more than just physical fighting though.

    it also has a lot to do with situational awareness, understanding the effects of adrenaline in a scenario where you have lost control of fine/complex motor skills, working under lack of preperation, etc.
     
  11. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    I strongly disagree with this. If you claim to teach SD then you should be teaching social training to diffuse violence simultaneously. Professionals who deal with violence every day of their lives receive social training, psychology training, role playing training, etc. They all do this because it works. These are professional who deal with it daily, not some average White Collar Bob who can afford a SD course but lacks the practical experience of the topic.
     
  12. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    That responce was in relation to a poster saying that you can smile etc etc and not get into fights. Which is true. But you shouldnt have to pay money to some SD guru to tell you how not get into fights. Its not that difficult.

    Proffesionals who deal with violence daily ,in my opinion, differ from SD as they are already knowingly going out to deal with it. Also people who choose to do that job will have certain important charactoristics that are more important than certain moves or or some degree on adrenalin or awareness or whatever. They more than likely have a will to win, tenacity, confidence with violence, an ability to fight back etc.They could learn anything and still be fairly handy. These are more important than moves and tactics. We have been around for thousands of years and survived with no SD training. People survive situations with none. In my opinion because they have the characteristics to survive no matter what. Thats more important to cultivate...will, determination, fitness to keep going, tenacity and willingness to be more violent than the attacker.
    SD is mainly about marketing and making money from people who want an easy fix.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

     
  14. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I think its personal responsibilt to try to cultivate these attributes and understand thats its these that help you survive not the moves or tactics you pay a SD instructor for. You dont need somone else to give this to you, in fact they cant. You get it yourself somehow.
    Also that alot of peope teaching SD have these attributes which are the real reason they can do what they can,but make out that its the moves and tactics they show that is the reason.

    R
    Thats not SD training thats fighting.
    SD guys try to make out that fighting is not the way to go and competition is bad and that if you learn there stuff you dont have to learn to fight.
    Any SD person that cultivates learning to fight against other skilled people at all ranges, I dont have a problem with. They obviously are not making out theres an easy route as that route involves losing and taking knocks here and there.

    And? I dont understand your point there.

    I am just explaining why I dont think SD is realy needed. Yes, I do have an objection to people claiming what they teach will work when it wont and people making out its easy to survive violence. But Im not going to stop it and its going to happen. Im just doodling my opinions on a forum.
    I said at the start, I dont stand a chance as most already buy into the SD market.

    You would learn more training regular in a good gym, learning to fight somehow and cultivating the attributes I mentioned and being a sound sensible person with common sense. And it would probably be cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'm sure jwt will reply, but I'd just like to add that he charges exactly the same amount per lesson as I do.

    Therefore it isn't more expensive to learn good SD training. It's exactly the same, providing you know where to go.
     
  16. B3astfrmthe3ast

    B3astfrmthe3ast Warning:Extreme power!!

    in my opinion you have to have fighting already in you if you are one of those scared to be hit dont like confrontation type of people no amount of training will change that and if it does it will take a good while
     
  17. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    That sounds like an attitude that will get you into trouble, not out of it.
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

     
  19. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Fighting for self defence and attack cultivated through the mechanism of sport.
     
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    At different stages in different disciplines.
     
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