Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

At the end of the day, talking your way out of a fight requires charisma (whether using charm or intimidation). You can't teach people to be charismatic.

Turning the other cheek requires a personality that can rationalise and accept social "defeat". Again, not something 4 hours of training a week can really begin to deal with.

You can certainly educate people, but if we're talking about adults, it is something they need to address and work out for themselves. Telling people to be aware and avoid trouble doesn't, in itself, do much. Plus, many here must know people who have de-escalation training up the wazoo, but it goes straight out the window as soon as it hits the fan.

I just feel that conditioning one's behaviour, and self-transmogrification in general, are highly personal and uniquely individual endeavors, so whilst words of wisdom may be useful or comforting along the way, in the end it is the individual who must explore and develop these skills.

 

I'm not arguing that it isn't useful, or that it is all about fighting in clubs (in fact, I didn't even mention that, I was thinking more of professional environments where people require that training).

My point is that all you can do is provide information, what your students do with that is entirely on their shoulders. This is not the same as physical intervention training, where (if done well) just turning up and doing the sessions will optimise your reactions whether you take it to heart and apply it to your life or not (though obviously if you do, you will progress further and faster).

I'm still not convinced that role-playing can effectively simulate de-escalation, with the caveat that I have yet to attend one of jwt's sim days and would be happy to be proved wrong on that one.

 

We use them all the time for in service training. It is abou giving trigger phrases that identify a course of action that can e employed that does not involve getting physical. Ugh the student misses the cues then that option disappears

They work very well actually, but you have to have sufficiently capable and briefed role players

 

When you say it works well, do you mean that you were taught interpersonal techniques that have worked well live, that you would not have considered before that training?

Edit: I also think there is another aspect to your "good role-players" point - you are doing this with people who spend a lot of their time dealing with genuinely unpleasant and violent people. Without this level of firsthand knowledge and understanding, coupled with good acting skills, I think role-playing could easilly be as self-deluding as the "compliant uke syndrome" MAs.

 

That is definitely a risk and you have to make sure you "train the trainer" - its one reason I am dismissive of martial arts schools doing self defence just because they are a martial art.

You absolutely can find skills and resolutions not previously considered. It's is about treading the fine line between having a cup of tea and giving counselling to someone and "HULK SMASH!!" - something that can turn one way or the other instantly in live situations

We use a lot of "verbal judo" concepts an will have days when the responses are isolated (I.e. some days verbal resolution will be sought, some days physical, some days weapons) and ultimately we have the "deal with what you get" days

 

I imagine listening becomes extremely important for the student. Being able to actively listen though when you have adrenaline zooming through is hard, you have to do enough of it so that it really is second nature and you are picking up on those cues almost without being consciously aware of it.

 

It can but as Hannibal as pointed out you need trained people doing it.

I'm not necessarily talking about specific self defence work now but with a good trainer and the right program it can work very well.

It must reflect the context they will work in though.

 

I would imagine that the biggest lessons would still come from observing these skills being performed "in the field" by a skilled colleague though?

That's certainly how I've learned most. Particularly with awareness and positioning, one luxury of having a personal relationship with my seniors and students is being able to teach, practice and collaborate out in the real world.

 

Oh absolutely - but that's no different than skills in the gym vs skill in a fight

Some people naturally do it (i flatter myself I can) and some can develop it and if they practice it for long enough can "fake" a natural response.

Some just refuse point blank and act like nobs and give the rest of us a problem when we come to deal with others

 

Sure, it could be as simple as getting people to always check they have all their stuff with them before leaving somewhere, to telling people where to sit and why if you're in a stranger's car (usually taxis in more dodgy countries), to how you position yourselves and how to use that to your advantage for observation and responding to threats while walking/standing/sitting, pointing out behaviours and potential flash-points, explaining your reasoning after dealing with potential or actual threats, pointing out potential errors in interpersonal interactions, and a million other tricks to know who is in your vicinity and what they're up to (including if they're looking through your stuff when you're not around). Also very useful skills like navigation, which can be a challenge in unfamiliar urban environments, but becomes a vital SD skill if you're being chased.

Talking about these things is good, but no substitute for absorbing good habits by osmosis from skilled people.

 

Actually, you kinda can. Socialization training is given to people who are acutely socially phobic to cure them of it, and they can go from stuttering dunces to having only mild twinges of panic rarely while hiding behind new found charming exteriors. When there is a small training group pressure to adhere to socially acceptable levels of violence in resolving altercations (RBSD courses), it can have a very profound impact in a person's perspective on violence and the socially responsible reaction to it.

 

No, but much of what I know comes from people who have. I'm SIA trained, but that's not really worth anything IMO.

 

Well, as I said, many of these things are taught as-and-when by virtue of spending time with other members outside of class.

I think the ability to know in which direction you are traveling is a very worthwhile skillset, and more likely to be useful than fighting - are you running further into a bad neighborhood, or to a safer environment? Have you doubled-back on yourself? You can't run forever, eventually you need a safe destination. Another SD example of this would be foreign travel; nothing says "target" more than someone walking around with their head in a map.

 

What you hafta remember about people who deal with violence daily is that the selection criteria is usually grossly inadequate and they're frequently a little unhinged and have something to prove to themselves. And even nice, sane people who deal with violent individuals long enough usually become pretty jaded and paranoid. It's infectious like that.

 

It depends on their temperament, would you describe Hannibal as jaded and paranoid? Anyway, I was talking more about people who use observation skills in a professional capacity, in this instance.

Paranoia is an abyss to cross, and some get stuck in it. If you can turn conscious thought into unconscious habit, I feel you can successfully cross that abyss.

 

I'm sure he probably is a bit, yeah. You can't really be exposed to violence day in and day out and walk away entirely unaffected.

So your point was that the trainees often become too adrenalized to notice proper social cues to deescalate conflict?