Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Simon, Mar 17, 2013.

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  1. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I don't completely believe that all of your training degrades in an adrenaline situation, Marc Macyoung makes very good points here http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/adrenalstress.htm he has also been in many street altercations and probably understands it better than most of us.
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think that article is a bit confused to be honest, but the point it does seem to make is that if you want to train for self defence you'd be better to train for self defence?

    Or am I missing something? It's late here so that's entirely possible :D

    Mitch
     
  3. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Part of it is saying that the complete degradation of skills under pressure is a myth. He does agree that it does make a difference, but not to the point that a lot of systems would lead you to believe. He also goes into explaining how a less complex system such as boxing is very effective because there are 4 punches that are used over and over vs. another system that has a lot more moves. He doesn't say those other ones are bad, just the amount of hours on 4 punches vs. 10-15-20 or more will take longer to become more effecient with.

    He doesn't believe that there is as much degredation of skills under pressure as many would think though.
     
  4. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    What the article is about is avoiding people who tell you not to train because "your body will never access those skills". His article is not saying "Skill is not limited under high-stress situations".

    As a side note:

    The article is rather un-hinged; it warns people of macho-posturing RBSD salesmen, even though it itself uses aggressive (and somewhat homophobic) sub-titles like "Are you adrenaline's butt-boy". The peice is practically drowning in warnings that "that attitude will get you hospitalized or gutted like a fish" and sentences which are so hard boiled "I had a name for your worst fears about crime and violence. I called it "Saturday night."" that I'm suprised I didn't crack a tooth just chewing over the first couple of paragraphs.


    If this is how Marc Macyoung markets himself (like a passive-aggressive, C-list crime-fiction writer) then I despair...


    As someone who has had to use MA competitively and on "teh streetz" I can vouch for the fact that adrenaline will mess with decision making and fine-motor skills. That's not to say that these abilities dis-appear, but that they qualitively change once the controlled enviroment is removed (and that applies to any training paradigm).

    Again, to avoid having people dig through Psychological Journals, I'd recommend watching the video's put up by JWT. In those videos trained martial artists (a good couple of them instructors) are forced to reduce thier skillset based on the lack of familiarity and psychological pressure that is placed upon them.


    Follow the link for some excellent SD simulations and discussion:http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111301
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  5. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Oh I totally agree with you on many levels actually. There are many many activites that can build character especially if your kid is willing to try and compete. Frankly my mind is never going to change in reguard to athletics and MA, Im all for them and I think there is a ton of benefit in all of them, but I truly believe that MA are really the best, again just my opnion based on my taste and world view. Oh and btw I never changing my opnion on the virtues of sd practice ok Im done.
     
  6. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Personally I'm very suspicious of "Character building" claims and MA; mainly because MA has way more wack-jobs and nutters teaching than almost any other Sport and I don't think these people make very good role-models.

    In my experience, as a general rule, a basketball coach is far less likely to be an ego-maniac with self-image problems than a karate teacher. The latter field has a habit of attracting an unusual number of people to teaching positions who use thier position to dump personal issues onto students.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  7. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    so as someone who has had to use MA in DA streetz lol are you a keep it simple stupid kind of person? Like many others do you believe the fewer the moves that are needed to be known and easier to practice (in the sense you don't need another person such as punching over and over again)?
     
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Eh? I don't understand, sorry.

    Mitch
     
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Sorry I dont understand what the ''eh?" is for.
     
  10. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    On a side note JWT said earlier that in his training you dont learn to fight and that his guys doing the scenariouse are mostly not fighters. So who knows.

    The point is not about fighting like you do in competition its about movement.
    I never said fighting, I said movement, fundamantal movement. A full contact competative fighter will not fight like he does in a competative fight if its for real..that I totaly agree on and always have. Thats been part of the confusion.
    They will,however, move on a fundamental level the same way and to the best degree possible as those ingrained movements that they have used in competition. Making them better equiped to apply whatever they need to apply. It will be a mess and chaotic, but their ability to get power, for example, in strikes will not suddenly disapear to the point of uselesness.

    Another way to look at it, is totaly away from martial arts and look at other sports that involve running or jumping or climbing or throwing or swimming. Competitors in those kinds of sports only move one way...it will not change dramaticaly from one to the other because the context is different. There is not one way to do it for competition then suddenly another if its for real.

    Talking of context...if SD guys see someone in a suit shouting at each other before it goes physical, for some reason that makes it ok. But when those scenariose do eventualy get physical it still just looks like poor MMA. In fact at times I would say less violent than some MMA fights or fighters. Put them in shorts and rash gaurds and the SD people would not look twice at it.
    Its only because their are roles and all that business before. If you look at it purely from the physical level or the movement level, there are only so many ways can move in an emergency .
     
  11. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Well I can see how that might look when compared to what I wrote before. Let me clear that up though. I LOVE MA period, but not for its awesome character building ability, which I don't totally believe in, in fact some schools are more like an ancient Roman gladiator camp. I do like the fact my kid (which I don't have) would learn self defense and get some exorcize instea of watching tv all day everyday.

    I do suppose MA like other sports can build some good habits however, in fact if your kid really wants to win tournaments or ace his next belt test he might train hard and study hard, that's good, a little self serving but good.

    All in all sports build character so does church or doing your home work or chores, MA can build this character as well again to some degree.
     
  12. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    To START OFF;

    It Takes Good Charecter to Build Good Charecter
     
  13. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    Personally I don't gear my training towards Self Defence, I have too many friends, hobbies and passions to worry about outside of how I would fare against some Yobbo in the street. Frankly, now that I have experienced MMA fighting both in "the cage" and on the Matt and gained some confidence in general "fighting ability" I have almost no practical interest in Self Defence.


    Simply put:
    I know I can beat people up if I have to.
    I know there are people who can beat me up if they have/want to.

    So I feel that, unlike certain SD people I've met, I don't have any apprehensions or personal anxieties about violence in relation to my self worth, hence "real world violence" being so low down on my priorities.

    I can't really advocate any particular training style for Self Defence (as it is far from my speciality) but I think my main advice to people would be to have a tool-kit that is adaptable to different situations and levels of violence and one that you can access instinctively even when you are concussed or "off-your-face" on adrenaline.
     
  14. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    However there is plenty of footage of MAP members who ARE trained fighters finding their skill set particularly difficult to access in such an un-familiar enviroment.

    I think we're skirting dangeroulsy close to a semantic argument here.

    Most amatuer MMA fighters, keep their hands up and head down with a low sunk base when striking in training, but often in their first fight once the adrenaline is flowing many of them need their cornerman to yell out and remind them of these simple basics.


    The context never changes because they are always presented with qualitively similar stimuli to cue them and the goal is always well defined and similar to the goal before plus none of those sports involve decision making so even then they are very bad examples.

    What makes Self Defence so different to fighting is the way in which one has to process information, construct strategies and adopt appropriate mindsets as information is presented and in such a confused enviroment with ill-defined parameters it can be extremely dileberating; and where the mind goes, the body follows.


    What's your point here... that the MMA model is markedly representative of fighting? I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I think you've confused/conflated the difference between my lectures, my physical training courses, my regular classes and my simulation training. There is obviously a difference between what I can provide to people who see me once in a lifetime for 1 or 2 hours and people who can meet up with me every week.

    For people I hardly see I have to prioritise the skill sets they need. Fighting is low down on the list of priorities in terms of importance. The majority of the people I train I don't teach to 'fight'.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074751575#post1074751575

    What specifically was said by me was that you do not need to be able to 'fight' per se in order to deliver effective preemptive striking or hit hard.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074751458&postcount=345

    In my lectures and training courses I recommend people train in a contact sport to improve their physical skills if they wish to develop them further if there isn't a good regular SD class near them.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074751510&postcount=354

    Where possible the physical element of training should involve contact, and the more of it the better.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074751538#post1074751538

    My guys, in terms of my regular students, are not competitive fighters, however they and my physical methods have been praised for their effectiveness in our type of fighting (self defence scenarios).
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074751510&postcount=354
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  16. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    KUDOS!

    For decades, I keep trying to tell people (casual conversations and students alike) that there is a difference between self-defense and fighting. Many try to correlate the two as the same. In other words, to those people, fighting=self defense

    I just recently started to teach my one and only nephew, self-defense. He was not interested in martial arts or fighting. He became very terrified while out with some college buddies, when one got sliced (mildly) from a knife-wielding drunkard. Luckily, no one was severely injured, and the drunkard turned out to be someone they all knew.

    My nephew went on to mention, how some of his colleagues claimed they studied martial arts as well as “how many fights” they had. Out of these claims, none mentioned of any losses, and importantly, what was “actually” learned from those wins or loses. My nephew is a person who hardly follows and trend; therefore he wanted to learn self-defense and I had to give him a preliminary discussion upon the meaning.

    Our first meeting, I had some basic written information that we were going over together. When in midway discussion, my brother-in-law (his dad) decided to butt his nose into it. My brother-in-law has many college degrees in the field of engineering, with this and his character; it makes him a boisterous “know-it-all”. He went on to tell us of his distant past of what and how he had trained in martial arts. Likewise to others, how many situations, per “wins” he had. When I had inquired about his loses, he had replied he did not have any. He reciprocated my question upon me, I thus answered, my loses are probably the same in number to wins. I count anytime walking away without a physical altercation a "win” and anytime I walked away with a injury (ever so slight), a "loss"

    You could imagine the confused look upon my bother-in-law’s face. He went on to demonstrate one of his favorite moves when someone would grab your (defender) shirt. He had shown he could have broken the “attacker’s arm in several places”. I told him that in self-defense, the understanding of “reasonable and/or extreme force", along with legal ramifications, have to be understood. He went on to explain, “he has to do without thinking”. My reply was if he was to do what he had demonstrated “he would do a lot of thinking in a jail cell.”

    I told him, that self-defense is also about understanding behavior, attitude, stimulus, and response. These may not be able to be eliminated entirely from the "human condition”. But we can be trained on it without failing in the task.

    His last response was totally set upon his thinking; “fighting is self defense; learn to fight is the same as learning self-defense”
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    When I read this, I had reflected back on the Comedian Richard Pryor and his "Macho Man" skit
     
  18. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    It's not semantic it's different. How you fight in self defence will be different to how you would in competition. That's obviously true. How you move on a fundamental level will not be different. The fact you have trained and used these fundamentals for full contact fighting means you are more able to apply them. It's just more urgent, more chaotic,more violent. Understanding and factoring all that into the trAining puts you in a better position, physically, than someone who doesn't do that stuff.

    Full contact fighting still involves making decisions to stop being knocked out and at the same time knock someone out. Doing that is not to be underestimated.
    And during emergencies the frontal lobe of the brain kicks in and the rest shuts down, which means over complicated movement and decision making is now gone. You only have the things you have done or trained left. If it hasn't been used in some kind of way resembling that emergency then it won't be usefull. The closest way to train it is competition.

    Bad examples? All those attributes have been important for our survival. If a runner had to run for his life he would not suddenly fail to run, physically. If he specifically tried to run exactly like a competition and was unable to deal with obstacles and tried to just run in a circle or something , then he would fail. But no one would presume anyone was that silly. No one offers special ways to run for self defence that differs from what runners do.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'd probably not do the light 5 minute warm up first though. :)
     
  20. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    All we're getting up to here is what is the difference between "moving differently" and "fighting differently"; moving/fighting call it what you will, extreme stress will affect technical proficiency whether that is in decision making or in proper bio-mechanics.



    Decisions like "cross or hook", "cover or slip" aren't really decisions in the cognitive sense of the word (which is what we are discussing) and even then the cognitive decisions that do get in most MMA fights consists of minor adjustments to fight plan rather than the complete re-orientations that go on in self-defence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe
    It's been a while since I was last on a Bio-Psych course but I think you might want to check again. Frontal lobes deal with decision making and planning.

    Competition gives the closest approximation of what fighting is in an abstract form. It is, as it stands, probably the foremost platform on which to form good fighting habits but it is not the best reflection of how self defence scenarios play out in the real world.

    Yes they are bad examples because they are activities that involve very little cognitive activity that would allow adrenaline to have a major adverse affect.

    A runner will generally run as well as he/she can because all the runners need to think is "run" so as long as that thought gets through then the runner is efficient. For someone in a Self-Defence scenario it is not the same. Good Self-Defence is not thinking "FIGHT" and then going to town on everyone.

    It's about planning, forethought and strategy in a complex and un-predictable environment, there is a mental aspect in SD that plays into the fighting (and the bio-mechanics there-in) which is hampered by stress because it requires sharp cognitive perception and the emotional intelligence to stay in the game and access your skill-set.
     
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