Does anyone actually need to learn self defence?

I don't think the vast majority of people need to learn self defence. Most people do not die or become seriously harmed from violent encounters during their life. This tells me it is not a necessity.
It is a very good idea however, especially the non-physical skills.

 

Internet dating is hard!

Generally speaking, people without training are asleep at the wheel. They walk around oblivious to danger habitually and don't blunder into it more because of sheer luck, nothing more. Obviously the average TMA class doesn't provide the sort of observational training required to spot and avoid danger, but once you begin thinking about the possibilities of violence and are humbled by how unprepared you are for it in a formal class, it activates your mind to be more aware of the topic.

Only if they're a tool. Again, to generalize here, you're probably talking about young males who would be the most likely to do that. A female student or an older student are a lot less likely to consciously escalate something. And in my experience with young males, a lack of training has never stopped them from believing they are Billy Bad Asses.

Quite the contrary actually. I can be pretty short-tempered at times. It's a character flaw. MA taught me to control that temper and gave me an outlet where my ego wasn't on the line by teaching me about my own limitations and satiating my young male insecurity to discover how tough I was. Learning how to damage someone also made me appreciate a strong desire to never do it. Damaging someone is quite easy. Any moron with a rock can do it. Showing restraint and control is far more challenging and I hold myself to a much higher standard now.

Most of the time it's entirely sufficient. When it stops being sufficient it sure is nice to have the cognitive resources to persevere using other methods though, isn't it? Once you've had your back to the wall and the only way out was violence, it makes you appreciate the time you spent learning to survive it.

 

To me self defense is very important.

The thing is what I am defending myself against is a heart attack, or something else that comes from being a out of shape couch potato.

The idea of self defense against other people is really just a lever that I use to get myself to fight the much more likely enemy of the couch potato monster.

When I was younger the motivation was different.

 

I think this is an excellent point - 'self defence' doesn't necessarily mean defending ourselves from physical attack: becoming more active and healthy defends the body from illness and stagnation - this is the kind of 'self defence' that everyone can apply on a daily basis.

 

Cannot speak for NHS, but a friend of mine works in a psychiatric ward where they look after the ones who are committed against their will, people who are really deranged, people who are schizophrenic, etc.

She told me that they all carry an alarm button and when they press it, doors burst open and whomever is attacking them gets dogpiled with as much overkill as possible.

I asked if there are limitations on what she can or cannot do and she said that only major assaults get reviewed (because there are minor ones on most days) and in practice, it is no holds barred. It is understood that in these situations, the nurses are in serious danger and can defend themselves by any means necessary.

That said, the SD they get taught is really limited, which is why many of them take outside classes.

 

I think instead of self defense what you are learning is self confidence and self acceptance. Anyone that trains past their initial reasons ( fear and whatnot) and goes into training for trainings sake are simply comfortable with themselves.

You can reach that state of mind without a real fight and once there can enjoy life more. So forget the nonsense people think they are learning (knees to the head or arm bars or ninja death rays) these are just a medium for learning to accept yourself and be confident.

So, SD training is key in that it frees your mind like this, not for the physical so much as the mental.

 

I think the first thing that should be taught to anyone attending a Martial Arts class for self defense purposes is awareness and situation control. After all the best form of self defense is not being in the situation to defend yourself in the first place!

The problem you often get, which in my younger days I too was guilty of, is that you see a fair few people who have a handfull of Martial Arts classes, or even specific Self Defense classes (or even worse Tae Bo..) maybe get their first belt tied around their waist etc and all of a sudden they think they're invincible!

This can go one of two ways - either the boost in confidence will help them deter potential attackers OR they'll be too eager to use the techniques they've learnt, and soon find they're not pressure tested, nothing is ingrained yet, and they've caused themselves a bigger problem because they CHOSE to use violence when they probably could've talked their way out of it.

I realise I was lucky, in my TKD days I walked the streets feeling invincible, because I could kick anyone in the head, who's going to withstand a head kick, I often thought, it wasn't until about 10 years later upon starting Jujitsu that I discovered that my kicks were only these little tippy tappy kicks, that, while impressive, wouldn't actually hurt anyone - I didn't know how to put power into them.

This, for a while, deflated my confedence - I was uncertain if I would be able to handle myself any more. I then got my first belt in Jujitsu and my confedence grew, but, luckily, it grew at a slower rate, and by my third belt I realised that I still had a long way to go.

So yeh, its a double edged knife this self defense. It can IMO give too much confedence, which can in turn get people in more trouble than they would have without the training (perhaps) but if the right, more important, aspects of awareness and situation control are taught first combined with the correct pressure testing to show the student that their 3 weeks of training doesn't make them invincible, then you'll have someone who knows how to handle a situation, and knows that they need a lot more training before they can perhaps fully handle the physical aspect as well as they'd like - by which point the training takes over as being a fun thing, learning the art etc - rather than for self defense..

 

I think this is a very good subject for a thread, and it's prompted some very good responses, IMHO.

The points that I would have made have all been covered much better than I could have done, so I've just thanked a lot of people!

 

I'm posting from my phone, so I apologise if this seems a little disjointed.

Sadly everybody needs to have a basic level of self protection awareness. We do not yet live in zero crime societies. Some people gain this awareness through their upbringing and environment, others, perhaps more fortunate ones, require training to achieve the same level of awareness.

The most important elements of self protection are avoidance, deterrence and de-escalation/negation/resolution. Sadly these are the elements less frequently covered in the majority of martial arts or self defence classes.

While violent crime may seem to be common (and I write as a person who had a home invasion, assault and theft by 5 men on one household less than 100m from my house last month) it is in fact rare. The odds for most people of becoming a victim are small. If you have appropriate awareness then in theory you should be at less risk than those average low odds, so do you need physical training?

The answer for most people is no. If people are honest with themselves and observe real fights they should also admit that the majority of martial arts training available is only useful or effective for a minority of situations should you find youself at the stage were physical force is necessary.

So why train? After all, I teach a system that I've specifically orientated towards the majority of real situations, and use training methods others might consider extreme in attempting to recreate real events. I focus heavily on the more important non combative training, so why should my students train physically as well?
1. It's fun.
2. It's as physically beneficial as any sport (in other words carries mental and physical health benefits).
3. In the unlikely event of a real situation they (and I) think their odds have improved.

I think the first two of those apply to all martial arts, and that's great self protection against more likely threats than violent crime. I can't think of better reasons to train.

I don't train because I expect or want to fight. I train because I enjoy it and it's good for me. I focus on self protection because I'm lazy enough to want my fun time to have a practical purpose.

John Titchen

 

Nobody forced you to be an investment banker.



OK garbage joke, but it's a shame health care workers get assaulted and bankers and politicians go arround scot free unless Eric Joyce is about

 

I think about it as a cost-benefit analysis, I suppose. I don't spend a lot of time (as little as possible really) in bars or clubs. I have much more to prove to my own children than to some self-important chest puffer in "the streets." And I live in an area where, if I were to be involved in violent crime, it'd more likely be some combination of 1) guns, 2) moving cars, and 3) more than one bad guy.

So that's where the cost-benefit analysis is. When we talk about self-defense and the likelihood of needing it, we're not just talking about the probability of being involved in a violent altercation. We're talking about the probability of being in an altercation in which physical self-defense would actually make a jot of difference. If I get caught in a drive-by (which the DC area has seen just recently; five victims if memory serves), there's not much in my toolbox that's going to help.

Now, awareness, deescalation, and all that sort of thing, honestly I feel I got more training in that from 1) simple common sense and 2) a graduate degree in counseling. I'm a devoted people watcher. And a slightly more skillful one now. Add that to my propensity to not put myself in likely trouble spots anyway. (And, to be clear, that's not because I'm actively avoiding trouble. It's just because I'd rather be home relaxing.)

All of that is to say this: When I think about the likelihood of needing physical self-defense, and I measure it against the years and years of training involved, it doesn't usually stack up. If people enjoy training for self-defense or live in a different situation to me, that's a very different matter. But FOR ME, there has to be some other compelling reason to train, because the idea of self-defense simply isn't a big enough concern to sustain me in the long term.

 

Obviously you have never come across the idiot in the bar who has drunk too much, had a fight with his missus (or is in a bad mood because his boss is a fairly unpleasant fellow to be around) and looks round for the smallest person in the bar so he can kick daffodils out of them before he goes home.

I have, being nice does not mean you avoid trouble..

Please review MAP's policy on masked profanity.

 

No one said it does

You cannot guarantee anything in life; sorry but that's the facts - what we are referring to is called "target hardening". If you are nice, pleasant and hang around the right places you reduce your risk of becoming a target

Are there exceptions? of course....but that's why they are called "exceptions" rather than "rules"

 

I liked the seat-belt analogy I read earlier. One doesn't plan to have a crash/fight (I have never had a fight outside of school) but it can't hurt to belt up/train. Sure, training does not guarantee you safety in a messed up situation, but then neither does a seat-belt.

 

The way I see it if all you want to do is train for fun or health benefits you might was well train realistically and combatively too.
The fun and health will still be there (and arguably they are more important) no matter what you are training (by and large).
I think a common theme in MAP is triangulating an issue from several sides in order to get the most out of something.
And I see martial arts in the same way.
Train athletically/sportively for the health and fun.
Train realistically for real violence too.
Don't lose sight of what other approaches can offer.

Don't be a street lethal fatty that smokes and has a heart attack at 55.
Don't be a sports only person that gets sucker punched by a teenager they should have spotted coming a mile away.
Don't be a traditional guy that never tests what he does, either in a sporting format or pressure testing.

I don't see the point in limiting what you can do and I don't think the old masters did either.

 

That I absolutely agree with. For me, I think it's more a question of how I frame it in my own head. I don't anticipate needing it for self-defense. But I try to train realistically out of sense of being honest with myself. I want to be honest with myself about what I can and cannot do. So I have to test it in some way. I can't just go through the motions of something for the sake of it.

 

If I had my way I'd structure a beginners training in the following manner.

Tackle basic SD first (awareness, avoidance, fence, pre-empt etc). I wouldn't want someone I taught to get injured when I could have helped prevent it with some basic knowledge. Make them aware of how violence really goes down (so they are forever primed to spot nonsense and put anything they learn in context).
That's simple and fairly easily learnt I think (applying it being another matter). It doesn't make sense to me to avoid that just because we are relatively safe today.

Once that foundation is in place I'd round out their skills with versatile fighting skills in all ranges. Make them able to problem solve beyond contrived drills, scenarios and sparring. Help them find out what they like about martial arts. What their strengths and talents are. Do they like kicking? Grappling? Weapons maybe? More targetted SD perhaps?

In tandem with that I'd attempt to progressively "stress" them mentally as well as physically so they get the benefits of improved physical and mental health. More confidence, knowledge of themselves and develop the ability to endure. Build their "bottle" and control of aggression and intent so they can switch on and actually apply what they are learning.
Make them fitter, faster, more flexible, more coordinated etc etc.

And I see no reason why that process can't also be fun for the most part. If done in the right way.

 

This is a very articulate point that I feel should apply to most MA students. It's also pretty important to remember that when you build a foundation of bad habits because realistic training wasn't part of your hobby, you're actually less capable to perform in real violence than if you had just done nothing. Which in and of itself is fine so long as you're honest about it. I think we all know that many schools aren't honest about it though.