Does a Ninjutsu background mean koryu teachers won't accept a student?

On another forum, I mentioned how it it is my opinion that koryu teachers won't take students who have a background in Ninjutsu. However, I may be basing my opinion on a fairly narrow set of experiences, so can I ask if this is a general thing or not?
I was personally turned away from a koryu kenjutsu school in Europe back in 2001 or thereabouts. They were very polite and said they had to ask the headmaster in Japan. They eventually got back to me and told me politely but firmly "No". I didn't have any tattoos, didn't have a criminal record, no drug use, no links to Al-Qaeda, nothing like that. They politely told me my application was declined and I would have to give up Ninjutsu if I wanted to reapply.(However, they were happy to accept students who did Aikido and Judo at the same time as koryu). In addition, I know of quite a senior Ninjutsu Shidoshi in England who was turned away from the Toda Ha Buko Ryu. He went to Japan in person to apply, but was still refused. He was also not accepted by the Araki Ryu. It may or may not have been Ellis Amdur's teacher that he asked. I can't say for sure.Then there was a Bujinkan person in the USA I know personally. He tried to enter the Yagyu Ryu Kenjutsu under Meik Skoss in the USA. He was told no. I also have heard (but I am willing to be corrected as it is 2nd hand) that Master Otake of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu will not accept students with a X-kan background.Now maybe these are all isolated instances and not representative of the wider koryu teachers. I cannot say for sure. So does anyone know what the general situation is?
If I'm mistaken, I am happy to be corrected.

 

You have a PM regarding this matter.

 

Well , why dun you tell that you did not learn ninjutsu , maybe they will welcome you more in the first place .

I am pretty curious , though why dun they accept ?

 

It’s discrimination I tell you!!

There’s Ninjism everywhere. Having to put up with Ninjists all the time not being able to go out for a walk carrying my Shuriken. Don’t start me on the looks I get when I try to run up a tree or when I go down the pub with my Mask on, actually no the wrost place for the mask thing is banks they seem to have a real problem with it.


A guy just happens to wear all black most the time and he gets funny looks for it. God sake people I’m not that weird it’s not like I’m a Goth or something!

 

what a load of crap, spooky is in the Bujinkan but still learns koryu sword and he never has a problem you just made that up. Why would a teacher have to request info from Japan?

were they not good enough to make their own decision?

give us a link to the teacher so i can verify this BS.

well that goes without saying really doesnt it

funny, i know 2 5th dan Buj who do Katori shinto, another bit of your're BS by any chance?

you are mistaken, i think it would be personal preference more than anything, its well know senior teachers interview perspective students and only a few get in.

Another desparate avenue for Bujinkan bashing me thinks.

 

Yeah, but I'm looking into allegations that Spooky is an Al-Qaeda Spetsnaz Tamil Tiger CIA Mujahideen ninjer. He'll be on his **** then!

(if I can prove my claims...)

 

He told me that he told you the truth when he joined!!!

He hasnt told you about his pink lycra wonder women suit either then???

 

just a point though, you mentioned the toda ryu, funny, when i googled it it came up with coments from Meik skoss

http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss11.html

i bet really you just looked on his site and thought good example to use, you really are a fake.

 

Actually Greg, it really does depend on the ryuha and it's policies. Not all koryu are the same in outlook, some are very closed and others are very much open.

Traditionally, to actually do degeiko (Train outside of your chosen teacher's dojo) you need a letter of introduction and sponsorship called a suisenjo which verifies your interests in learning and your character. Without it, you can't really train at another dojo unless you hide it from your teacher. When you teacher finally finds out about your dishonesty, lack of commitment, etc, etc, you're given hamon.

To get into one of the koryu I was really eager to train in about eight or so years ago in Tokyo, I asked my current koryu teacher for advice. The teacher I wanted to train with was well known to him, and wrote me a suisenjo and actually attended the interview with me! (He later confided with me that another student had tried to join another koryu behind his back with out consultation and promptly issued him with hamon.)

The instances written above are not of a discriminatory nature. It's just the fact that certain Japanese traditional military arts require Japanese traditional reigi. If not, you're just not welcome. The instances above (Some of which I have been involved with) had nothing to do with discrimination against the bujinkan, it was about bad manners, and dishonesty by the applicants, nothing more.

Even when you have your own dojo, that doesn't mean you have a say on who is let into the ryuha. It's not your ryuha, as a teacher, you're a conduit passing down the techniques and tradition in an unaltered format. I still refer to my sensei when someone from another ryuha shows interest in joining my dojo. It's SOP (Standard Operating Procedures)

Sometimes, it's not their decision to make.

 

Guys, this is fascinating discussion to me. Thanks (esp. to Kogusoku) for all the details - it provides a great insight into the Budo culture and traditional Japanese thought.

 

Bloody skirt wearing Ninjists

Joking aside, it is as Cap says a very interesting discussion and fair play to Kushuo for actually raising it and not just making blanket statements about the subject

Scott! Nito Seiho with Jutte today becuase I was bored whilst it was snowing too, very cool

Anyway I'm back off to my beer!

 

Did you wear your white ninjer costume to go snowball fighting...?

 

Rich,

What's that white stain on your pants?

AHHHHH NINJISM!

 

It's really a shame we don't have a 'rep points' system here at MAP a la MartialTalk as this thread would've seen me handing out points aplenty for information given and grins arisen .

 

Sorry to divert this thread, but I really, really like this statement. It reminds me a lot of something I heard that impressed me no end about Otake-sensei of the Katori Shinto-ryu.

On the BBC Way of The Warrior documentary, he said that he dislikes being the centre of attention and that he views himself simply as the servant of the tradition and knowledge of the school.

 

my instructor does not allow training in other styles at least until you have a strong foundation in our style... but he says when you have really learned a style is good to move on to something that makes up for the weaknesses of your original style..
but i think in your case its discrimination....

 

A very good outlook.

Nope, it's more like you not really understanding the social and loyalty implications involved in this particular part of the Japanese culture.

 

ya i know the japanese an many other eastern cultures are very conservative when it comes to stuff like this...but i think that its about time to open up to change...

 

simple solution..don't tell them if its going to be a problem.

 

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, but things like that aren't going to happen in a classical preserved culture.

Case in point: About 15 years ago, a meeting about the succession of the son of a certain ryuha's headmaster was brought. It was apparent that the young son was active in the ryuha, but was more involved in rugby. Since a number of koryu are basically preserved and handed down from father to son in an unbroken line (This depends on the ryuha in question of course), succession and correct transmission are paramount factors when the survival of a ryuha is in question.

At the meeting one high ranking person, who's opinion was held in rather high value was quoted as saying "If he thinks he has a choice in succession, he hasn't been brought up correctly."

That mindset basically sums up everything.

You can't just shove western virtues down the throats of eastern men. They're going to politely tell you to foxtrot oscar. Especially when they see what it has done to some of their countrymen and children.

The effect of how some western values have affected the Japanese (OK, it's radical, and worst case, but it is bloody true.)