Do you punch like bruce Lee

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by karl52, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    I thought id post this over here after Simon commented on youtube about the bruce lee clip.
    Since I started punching I been studying and loved Bruce lee,who hasn't,and this is the way I've always seen him,gifted with speed but trained like no other for technique,obsessive training will bring another level. but nobodies super human and if there hitting harder than anyone else then threes a reason. Their doing something slightly different bio mechanically,this brings me to the first clip of Bruce on the heavy bag this clip that confirmed my thoughts, it shows students (Ted Wong training on the bag) Ted is using an unsupported classic boxing punch like swinging a hammer.but Bruce is using a kinetic punch driving in like a jack hammer,you can see how the drive/bend into the bag is deeper when Bruce hits,this sort of drive you only get with a kinetic punch hes also using a deep snapping shockwave on the end,Im sugesting Bruces punch is a sort of mix of western boxing and karate.


    now particularly this clip here and the 6inch punch,you simply cant get that much drive or chest compression with a standard boxing punch.swinging in like a hammer.using the outside of the middle knuckle
    Bruce is driving in like a jack hammer,completing the full kinetic chain.The punch hes demonstrating here cannot be thrown in modern boxing gloves because of the thumb position.So boxing gloves teach you a different punch than the one demonstrated by Bruce here.Again a perfect version of a deep snapping shockwave on the end of the punch to complete it,but there is a bit of a push as well

    This brings me to my clip here explaining the difference in a supported kinetic punch and an unsupported (boxing style) punch. The kinetic punch is a significant step up in power.[ame=""][/ame]

    This clip shows you how to test your style to see what type of punch you throw.Do you hit like a hammer or Jack hammer,by the way its impossible to hit like a jackhammer in modern boxing gloves

    Heres Bas Rutten throwing a very nice unsupported punch,notice how the elbow is much lower on the hooks,than the kinetic punch and his style doesnt change with the gloves

    unsupported bare knuckle or boxing punch[​IMG][/URL][/IMG]

    Supported kineitc punch

    it doesnt just come down to the part of the knuckle you land with its on a different angle from the shoulder to the knuckle and the close guard is different to allow for this

    Simon asked me on youtube "Karl, isn't this just punching correctly, as opposed to incorrectly?"

    The problem with youtube is its hard to discuss in detail

    in boxing gloves a boxer can only punch unsupported, the thumb position doesnt allow a fully supported kinetic punch,but I wouldnt say they were punching incorrectly,its just boxing but they are resricted by the glove.
    With Bare knuckle or in MMA gloves you get a much stronger option to complete the full kinetic chain which is a much stronger punch.When I looked at your shovel hook/lead hook clip here

    Your punching unsupported in these clips with the outside of the middle knuckle,breaking the kinetic chain from the shoulder to the knuckle,this is what i call a standard MMA punch (see pic)
    There not Kinetic,But I wouldnt call them incorrect. I just put that down to you using a more traditional western boxing stlye punch.

    with a kinetic punch youre looking at at least a 40% improvment in power and impact.and much more drive(offbalance)
    on top of the style your using now.theres lots of punching styles but only one style, that uses the full kinetic chain.theres only a few clip of Bruce punching like this.But im struggling to find any of his students who use this style,has anyone got any clips of anyone? hope this helps
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2014
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    40% harder according to who?
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'll read through later, but you can adjust your hands how you like, but as they say in Tai Chi, "when one part hits, all parts hit", so if you're not utilising the rest of your body, what comes out of the fist won't add 40%.

    One final thing for the moment. I can assure I'm not punching outside of the middle knuckle, because if I was I'd have suffered a boxers fracture by now.
  4. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I don't know, Karl. There's something screwy about using this clip to advocate for Lee's punching style over boxing.

    Several things, in fact:

    1) You're comparing the performance of a student with that of his teacher, claiming that one represents boxing and the other something else. The student is, by definition, less experienced. So any disparity in performance is at least partially due to that.

    2) Has Ted Wong ever actually trained devotedly in boxing? Or is this one of those cases we see so often, where a student supposedly throws "a boxing punch" or "a thai kick" so his master can deliver some counter from their repetoire and make it look compelling?

    3) We know that Lee DID study boxing. And you acknowledge that he's using a combination of boxing and karate. Aside from the fist position, the rest of his movement is pretty textbook boxing.

    4) How did you arrive at 40 percent?
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    As a fighter, I can honestly say if I hit someone with any part of my fist I consider it a good job. I would also love to see the report on that 40% statistic.
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    red flag number one in your video: "that's what i call a boxing punch". there are plenty of boxers who would disagree with that (nevermind the fact that there are many types of punches in boxing: jab, stiff jab, cross, hook, shovel hook, uppercut, bolo punch...). plus, i don't think a single boxing coach worth the name is dumb enough not to ensure that the first thing you know how to do is to close your fist properly. the thumb sticking out may be a misconception on your part owing to the fact that boxing gloves have padded interiors, therefore one's fist may very well be properly closed and the glove still look as if the thumb was open, simply because the pressure is on the padding and no traction is applied to the outside of the glove's thumb.

    red flag number two: you are arm-punching when demonstrating the "boxing punch". boxing power generation, from what i've seen, is almost identical to karate power generation (varying insofar as the actual punch varies, because form must follow function, but otherwise employing almost exactly the same biomechanics).

    issue number three: "dropping" punches being unsupported. only if you arm-punch. a dropping punch is easily one of the strongest punches a human can throw, because, you know, gravity. employ the correct muscle activation (which you do not show) to have the reaction force go into your shoulder girdle and torso, and it's exactly the same as a regular straight, plus gravity. anyone who has seen, experienced or done any real (quote-unquote "internal") iron palm training can attest to this (i haven't trained it, but check on the other two). hell, i would state with about 90% confidence that bruce's short range punches had a significant "dropping" element to them.

    issue number four: your "unsupported hook". i do not know a single person who hooks with the palm facing up. that's usually done with an uppercut, which is entirely a different kind of punch.

    as i see it, you are basically explaining the difference between an arm punch and the most normal proper punch in the world, using several straw-men to discredit boxing punching.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The punch is oh so much more than power.

    I'm of the belief that you could train the jab every single lesson and still find more to do.

    Footwork, balance, timing, recovery, speed, locking off the opposite side of the body (which you don't do, karl) and so on.

    The you have the different types of jab.

    • Speed Jab
    • Power Jab
    • Feeler or flicker Jab
    • Up Jab
    • Double Jab

    The you have hitting on the front foot, hitting from the back foot (retreating), pivoting. If you're a martial artist you have the entry for a straight blast, the 1 and 3 inch punch in addition to the floating punch (which is a punch, not a push, despite what you see in the Bruce Lee video.

    With all of the above I don't think you can say with any authority that a punch with boxing or MMA gloves is weak and I certainly disagree that both stylists hit with the lower three knuckles.
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Just had a look at the other videos. A couple more thoughts:

    1) Bas Rutten has knocked out countless well-trained and -conditioned fighters with his "unsupported" punching. If that's what NOT to do, I don't want to be right (as the saying goes).

    2) Karl, I watched your video showing "boxing and MMA-style punching," and I have to agree with Simon. You're not highlighting a technical difference. It's just bad technique. It looks, to the untrained eye, like boxing. But you're right that there are fundamental flaws in the punches you're showing. But not because they're boxing. (They aren't.) They're just not being performed properly.
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Here is one of those things that so very much annoys me about the fandom surrounding Bruce Lee.

    I sincerely doubt he invented any punch that hasn't been done before. So, it isn't a "Bruce Lee" punch- punching like Bruce Lee or whatever.

    In CLF we learn to punch with the top knuckles, not the bottom ones. And we align our fist with the arm. And CLF was around since 1836. And it isn't the oldest style of kung fu by any means.

    Bruce Lee does not deserve credit for a punch- calling it punching like him when countless people before and after him have also done so.
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This man gets it. :)

    Quite honestly if you swapped the names of the fist photos it'd make more sense.
    Hitting with the bottom knuckles is what I see coming out of Wing Chun, JKD and the 1 inch punch. Not MMA or boxing.
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    And each has it's place.

    I've been working on this with my students recently.

    This video was shot on Tuesday and is an entry for a straight blast.

    At 0:40 I make an entry from a low level kick.

    At 0:43 my training partners arms are trapped and my next move would be a floating punch with the left hand. This would be a sudden jolting shot with the lower 3 knuckles.

    I'll either continue with the straight blast, or if the time is right I'll unload with boxing punches.

    If I unload with boxing punches I'll be hitting with the first two knuckles, boxing gloves, MMA gloves or empty hands.

    [ame=""]Sipa Low Level Licks - YouTube[/ame]

    Since one of my videos was used as part of opening post I had a trawl through some older clips.

    I can't see in this video that I'm doing anything other than punching like a boxer and hitting with the first two knuckles.

    [ame=""]30 30 30 - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is a clip of Andy, my senior student and although you can only really see the impact of his left hand it certainly seems to me to be landing correctly, even with boxing gloves.

    [ame=""]Conditioning and Body Shots - YouTube[/ame]
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What exactly do you mean by that, Simon?

    I wondered what you meant by this too, then found this hilarious example of how not to do it :D

    [ame=""]Wing Chun floating punch by Kamil - black belt grading - SAS Martial Arts in London - YouTube[/ame]
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    @ Karl:

    I think you're highlighting an interesting point about rotating into the target, rather than pushing through, which applies equally to kicks. Though I think using the terms "boxing", "MMA" and "Bruce Lee" have obscured your point somewhat.

    The biggest difference between Mr. Wong and Mr. Lee that I can see in that video is the driving of the rear leg.

    Also, when you are demonstrating the difference, you are rotating your torso a lot more with your "kinetic" punches. You're expecting to hit harder, so you do.

    Here's a question; is this "unsupported" punching?

    [ame=""]Mike Tyson hits the Heavy Bag (Cut Version) - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
  14. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    Perhaps we can arange a meeting and we can film it and I can run you through the kinetic punch.Its significantly harder than the style your using now,heres a look at one of my students hitting with the kinetic punch you can see how theres much more force/impact delivered to the body than in your clip.this is because the body is lined up in a stronger position kinetically


    have you had chance to look at the clip and the fist position in the guard?when I look at your high guard its physically impossible to land with the inside of the knuckle and the kinetic punch with a jab cross from that positon.the kinetic part of the middle knuckle only covers about a quarter of it,and it has to start at the right be delivered on the strongest powerline,looking at your hooks your not doing any of not saying your doing anything wrong,just different.But ill guarantee to show you a significant step up in power compared to your style your using now.

    Im be happy to meet up with simon or anyone from the forum and run them through the differences,perhaps they can give their own percentage:D

    anybody out there with a cup not overflowing?

    Its impossible to land kinetically in fixed thumb boxing gloves,I tried it and nearly broke my thumb,they force you to land with the outside of the knuckle like demonstrated in your body punching clip,these are outside knuckle punches,i explain this here with two clips

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2014
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Honestly...when you demonstrate the "inferior" punch it just looks like you aren't really trying rather than showing some sort of inferior method. Your hips don't turn, your shoulder stays back, you aren't really giving it any ooomph.
    Sort of like when alternative medicine practitioners push down on your arm to diagnose some sort of weakness but then just simply push harder when trying to prove their point.
    You are trying to prove your own point by demonstrating what you deem to be inferior by doing it badly IMHO.

    And also...seeing as this whole thread is critical of something I think your elbows could do with some work. Well I say elbows you are actually throwing some sort of outer-forearm type strike. It doesn't look like you are landing with the bone of the elbow but really the meat of the forearm.
    Which can be fine of course but then I wouldn't call them elbows.
  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Bruce Lee was over-rated.
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Karl...have you ever done any boxing? Because in all honesty I think a year or so would show you you aren't really into something here.
    Because it seems to me you've narrowed boxing punching down to very simple and flawed examples (seemingly by watching boxing rather than doing it), strawman punches basically, and then sought to invalidate them.
    When boxing punches are many and varied and as far as I'm concerned include the "better" variations you advocate.
    I've always tried to "jab" by having the elbow and kinetic chain behind the fist (and I take muy punching from Thai boxing).
    But I also recognise there many jab variants in boxing where that general principle can be modifed for different effects. Flicker jab, stinging jab, power jab, straight left jolt, etc.
    Same with the seem to be under the impression that boxers only lift the elbow as the fist lands when many have the elbow in line as you describe. They also hit with the fist vertical, horizontal, and turned over (thumb down). much more variety than you attribute to boxing. There's not just one boxing hook and it certainly most of the time doesn't look the way you throw it.
    You also completely miss out the link between punching and head movement, defensive counters, target alignment (all of your targets and nice flat and don't have elbows and boney bits sticking out), footwork, angling, etc etc. All of which impact punch mechanics, punch selection, weapon alignment on impact, etc etc.

    Now don't get me wrong...I'm sure you can hit hard. I'm not questioning that.
    I just think you are barking up the wrong tree in trying to differentiate what you do from boxing when to be honest it all looks like standard variation you'd find in boxing anyway.
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Although this thread has made me watch some wicked boxing highlights. :)
    And as far as I can tell there are as many variations of left hook as there are boxers that throw them. Some are almost slap like, some loop right out and back in, some are very short, some thumb down, some look awful but are powerful anyway.
    And none look like they are missing out on any power or support.

  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    David, if you lead like I do with your right, the left side of the body shouldn't move away from the target when you punch.

    Although there are problems with this video (rear leg stays in the bucket and comes off the floor when the punch lands), you can see that the non punching side of the body stays sturdy, rather than turning away from the target.

    [ame=""]Working on the jab head/body - YouTube[/ame]
  20. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Karl, you can dispute the points being made or not. But be very careful about characterizing anyone questioning your premise as simply "having an overflowing cup." We've all heard that old chestnut. And it doesn't really seem like you're considering people's feedback at all. So think about your own cup, if you insist on the metaphor. You say you're open-minded. But you haven't actually entertained the repeated notion that you're demonstrated improper boxing technique to begin with.

    As PASmith said, I've got no problem believing you can punch hard. That isn't the issue.

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