Do Shotokan blocks work?

I think what I'm trying to say is that when you choose a martial art, you're effectively choosing which teacher you want to fight like. I chose karate and accept the training methods they choose because the end result is worth aiming for. I'm not in too much of a hurry - I guess if you are, you choose something else.

 

Sorry if I'm being pedantic, but surely you would still reach those same end results if the kihon techniques were the same as the ones used in kumite?

 

I think Timmy Boy has hit this on the head. Practising the Japanese style kihon simply does not develop any significant fighting abilities. It makes no sense to practise techniques one way and spar in another - the whole sambon & ippon kumite model just doesn't produce the skills you need to fight effectively.

I've been teaching karate for a number of years and I must admit I used to teach the old system - however I no longer teach it that way. I found there are far more effective ways of developing the skills without watering the art down. In fact I've been using the old Okinawan methods instead of the "Mass Production" Japanese method. The Okinawan method is far superior in every way. You can teach a student in a month what it would take a year to teach using the Japanese method.

 

I guess all I can say then is I gotta try me some of that okinawan stuff at some point!

 

For the record, I'd like to let it be known that I also really need a beer.

 

My sensei mentioned something like this when I was still training in Shotokan. Something about how most of the blocks were actually dilivered diagonally or something like that.

Can you enlighten us on the okinawan way Gyaku?

 

Hard to explain without being in person - but I'll have a go.

Lets take the common garden shuto uke. This 'block' is taught in two phases
1. A 'wind up' movement
2. The block action

The Japanese taught that all two movements were the block. The okinawans use movement 1 as the block - a fast easy movement which you can see use in free sparring, the second part is teh counter attack.

So...

Lets say someone throws a gyaku-zuki at your gut. Using a light and fast action you use part 1 as your block or cover - you can use either the raised hand or the lowered hand to block

Then deliver your shuto to the throat or other convenient target as your counter. In fact this is not too different to a boxers 'palm' and jab counter. It explains why this technique is found in kokutsu dachi or cat stance in kata - boxers also put their weight on the rear foot when they use this counter

This also explains why the wind up movement was taught as a light relxed movement while the second motion was strong. Light block, strong counter.

It also solves the second problem - the use of hikite - why use hikite whuile you block? Wrong - you use the hikite movement AFTER your wind -up movement (Which is in reality the block) the hikite just pulls your opponant into your strike after you've blocked - and prevents him from throwing anything else while you busy yourself countering

Now start applying this idea to kata - and Bunkai will make a lot more sense

The best way is to work under a knowledgable teacher. I noticed a few of you are in the UK, if you want I could put you into contact with a few people who could point you in the right direction.

 

So do you still practice the basic shotokan sytle blocks at your school? Or do actually execute the part 2's as strikes?

 

I don't teach the Japanese method at all, no point really.

Why not just go straight into teaching the more effective application? It's good for student retention - students stay when they feel they're being taught effective techniques. Also the Okinawan application is far easier to learn, one movement instead of two.

 

This doesn't sound like the standard Shotokan method to me. Fair play to you. Do you take it to the next level though - do you only practice it against someone stepping forward with oi-zuki, or do you practice it with someone stood in front of you throwing a punch?

Surely you are showing them "all the intricate movements straight off"? You do teach the full movement after all. You're just not showing them the application of those movements. Personally I prefer to teach people viable applications of movements as I find it helps them to remember the movement and practice it correctly.

I would go along with Gyaku's description of a basic block a couple of posts ago, but I'll add to that slightly if I may.

I consider either phase 1 of the movement (the chamber) or phase 2 (the end of the movement) can be used as a block. But if you use phase 1 to block it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to follow it up with the phase 2 movement. Conversely, if you use phase 2 as a block it most certainly shouldn't be preceded by phase 1 - you just go straight to it from your guard position. That's really where my beef with the basic Shotokan mode of practice lies.

Anoter mode of operation would be as follows: in phase 1 the 'reaction' hand parries the incoming limb and in phase 2 it is passed to the 'blocking' hand to be grabbed and controlled.

In reality I don't see any of the basic uke's as techniques per se. I see them as expressions of principles. Each uke expresses a number of principles (some power development, some tactical). Practicing the kata (from which the uke's are drawn) allows the student to practice and internalise these principles. But when you apply the principles with a partner it is neither necessary or appropriate to just thoughtlessly perform the whole movement from the kata - you simply take the principles relevant to this particular situation. It would be pointless, for example, to draw the reaction hand back to the hip if it didn't have hold of anything - in this situation you would simply draw it back to the guard position. In another application it might be pertinent to do the full hikite, as you have now got hold of the opponent. This is using the kata (and the kihon it contains) as a tool for your development, rather than you being a slave to the kata.

Mike

 

We are thinking along the same lines. Definately - the second part is only used if its in keeping with openings, purpose, tactics etc.

Interesting about some people referring to 'progressing' from oi-zuki to having the opponant right in front. Why not start with the guy in front? From a learning perspective there is no need to begin with oi-zuki. I'd love to start a Ban The Oi-zuki Campaign. I've experimented with this, students actually learn FASTER when its taught to them with someone standing in front of them.

Here is one way to teach the technique to a complete beginner very rapidly without any Oi-zukis.

Start by letting them perform teh technique slowly a couple of times in teh air - without a partner.

Nrext, have them recieve a punch from a SLOW partner - they then apply the shuto - SLOWLY - as their brain catches up you'll be able to speed teh process up.

Next add footwork etc - by the end of a 1 1/2 lesson they will be doing this in a 'live' fashion with good speed- just ensure that they signal their partner when to increase the intensity or lower it as needed.

Many boxing instructors use this to teach basic parry skills. The Systema guys also use a similar method which is very successful. It's realistic and greatly boosts the confidence of students as they are in control of how fast the exercise is carried out.

You can easily mix this up with hook and jab mitts etc for a bit of variety. You can also incorporate this into flow drills and I'm sure you can see how directly this applies to free-sparring.

Please try next lesson - its fun!!

 

bassai and Mike - I've enjoyed reading your exchanges, and it looks like you're in 99.9% agreement but simply looking at it from two angles.

Wether you teach the single 2-part move (then split it), or each individual part (then combine it when necessary), then the full movements that are in the kata (the blueprint) are transferred. It may almost be down to a teachers preferred method of getting their points across in a way they think their students can best take them in.

The 'Shuto' is an interesting example, as I found out at an Iain Abernathy afternoon. Each part did a job, but the two jobs were totally different depending on wether you were touching 'same side' arms with your opponent or 'opposite' arms.

If a situation arose when only one part of the movement was needed, then that one part HAS been learned The problem would come if you had only been taught one part (which might be seen as a 'truncated form').

 

I see a lot similarities between what people are saying. I'd say mostly there is agreement.

I do, however, see some oversimplification or generalizations I want to address.

Firstly, there is often a difference in blocks when:

1. teaching them to beginners
2. using them with a partner (one step)
3. using them in a two person set (multiple steps)
4. using them in kata
5. using them in bunkai
6. using them in sparring with gloves on
7. using them in sparring barefisted
8. using them in a "street" situation

Just to list a few. I will address 1, 3, 4, and 5

(1) In teaching them to beginners it often helps to be able to break the technique down into small counts. So a single blocking technique may be done to a two or three count.

(3) In a two person set, the movements can be done slowly or quickly, but it becomes important to teach the student how to use the non-chambered hand for covering and parrying (assuming the chambered hand is the one that will be executing the block). In other words, one hand parries, the other hand executes the block. For instance, the outward block done with the right arm is first initiated with the left hand conducting an open palm parry to the right and down at 45 degrees, the right hand then does the block or alternatively strikes the attacker's arm in the tricep (if on the outside, or bicep if on the inside).

(4) In kata, the blocking movements are NOT broken down into a count. Kata is primarily about flow. In other words, a block is done as one movement (flow). The reasons I think stem more from the jiu-jitsu applications of kata. For instance, the downward circular block is taught as an inside block to cover the face and then the downward block (two count), however in the kata it is important that this all flows together as one movement. The reason is that a jiu-jitsu application of the downward circular block isn't a block at all but an arm break/lock. e.g. The arm comes across, driving the elbow down into the arm of the opponent, the rest of the technique is the follow-through to the break. This is a counter to a specific grab in karate and must flow as one movement, not be choppy like multiple steps.

(5) There are basic bunkai and there are variations or advanced bunkai. The advanced bunkai IME focuses more on the Jiu-jitsu applications. The blocks are no longer just a block but something else.

 

I couldn't agree more. We don't use any exercises that involve dealing with a standard oi-zuki. We do have a couple of basic drills that involve something similar - these are to teach specific skills in a very controlled environment. But for the most part when dealing with punches we have someone stand just outside their tactile zone and punch from there simply by sliding in slightly. We do it from just outside the tactile zone rather than inside because we use a different strategy within the tactile zone that changes the situation completely (ie. we make physical contact before they even punch).

Mike

 

It sounds as though we do, at least to a degree. But if that's the case I doubt that what you're doing could really be called straight down the line Shotokan. I'm confident that the way I train and the way Shotokan is generally practiced are not simply different paths to the same place. The destinations seem to me to be quite different.

Mike

 

So Gyaku, do you guys chamber punches at anytime during training? If so what purpose does this fufil.

Thanks.

 

Yes we do, but only where a guard hand isn't required - there are a few situations that a chambered punch is tactically more useful that from a typical guard position. Certainly in kata they are largely chambered - but that is due to teh tactical requirements of the kata.