djinn and spiritual silat

Discussion in 'Silat' started by alex0000, May 18, 2006.

  1. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Warm salaams everyone,
    Bobbe, if it is not arrogance then all is cool. I have heard (an experienced) that in many of the Margaluyu derived tenaga dalam schools, and also in Nampon, the long-distance hitting can only work when the partner is emotionally intent on attacking, and doesn't work in training scenarios unless the partner has trained to act emotional.

    Forgive me for not believing in tenaga dalam or ilmu kebal, I heard a lots about it. I have not seen a master of tenaga dalam fight. The gimicks and the stories tales are some time convincing. But as for me, I do believe it when I see it. I want to see some of this people fight in the ring with a good boxer, I do believe a good boxer will intent to attack you in the ring:)
    Are you not wonder why none of the boxer champion from Asia? If their teacher can teach them how to knock out some one with merely a touch? Why not be rich and famous?

    To praise Ulin Nampon let's remember that Soekarno practised Ulin Nampon while in Bandung and later as President he survived several assassination attempts. One, the famous Cikini bomb, blew up right beside him, and he remained unscathed. I also heard that an Ulin Nampon player was also unscathed by the 7/7 extremist bomb on the No 30 London Bus in Russel Square a year today. Bobbe if your silat can help you survive standing beside a blowing up bomb or a hand-grenade then it must be as good as Ulin Nampon.

    I can't agree with the above statement. People believe what they want to believe. If you have been survived in several situations that can cost your life. You can believe God/Buddha/Yaweh/Allah save's you or just a luck but tenaga dalam? Naah. Hitler survived the assassinantion too, does Hitler practise tenaga dalam? My best friend got hit in the head by NVA's Sniper, I was next to him, shoulder to shoulder, Am I tenaga dalam student? Not.
    I've been extracted from hot LZ by Mc Guirer Rig (200 ft rope) from helicopter while the NVA's bullet passing me by, am I doing tenaga dalam? not! I am a lone survivor from an enemy ambush in Ashau Valley. 5 of my teammate went to Valhalla because of it, am I possesed tenaga dalam? Not by far! So what I have? May be it was not my time? May be God want me to live longer so I can balance my sin and my good deeds :) May be it was my luck, I can accepted all of this but not tenaga dalam.

    Bobbe, I too have tried having tenaga-dalam students attack me from affar - like they do in their training amongst themselves- and like you, nothing happens. It is because I am not really emotionally charged with intent to harm them, they say, and I believe them because they are trustworthy people who say this. That is why most of these schools advise against sparring with the general public as in a friendly sparring bout the ilmu doesn't work. This is actually the criticism that many silat schools offer to the tenaga dalam schools. Not everyday you are going to be attacked by an emotional assailant.

    Sorry Bram, I don't buy that story, with all do respect.
    My uncle was a ritired high ranking officer in RPKAD, I remember he told me a story after the failed Communist Coup de ta. (G30S) A company size of commandos went to a village in the Middle of Java that suspected harboring the member of PKI (commusnist party members). Through a loud speakers he informed everyone to drop their weapons and surrender. Suddenly he saw three guys with machetes charging toward them, sadly they was gun down before they even get close to the commandos. Later he found out that the attackers was a student of some one who claimed they become invicible after rituals etc. etc. And the teacher was surrendered without a fight.
    My Uncle and I could be wrong too,
    Warm salam,
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2006
  2. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    ....more tenaga dalam...

    Salam Mas Tristan,

    Why no Indonesian boxing champion? (Why no Indonesian anything champion would be more like it - huh?) I don't know... maybe, the tradition here is that you don't want to fight. Belajar silat bukan untuk jadi jago, the Betawi people say (learning silat is not to become a champion). Just getting pesilats to compete has been a historic hurdle for IPSI... but tenaga dalam demonstrations are everywhere even on the net. The oral accounts are even more way out - as you must know. But again, in the Margaluyu traditions the attacker must not only be intent, but also emotionally charged. A proffessional ring-fighter would not be emotionally charged, rather she would be cool and collected, no?

    Merpati Putih students learn how to drive cars and motorbikes with their eyes blindfolded I have seen them many times do this. Pagar Nusa girls climb up ladders of sharp golok. Gus Maksum (alm) from pesantren Lirboyo Kediri did become famous because in the late 1960's when men were banned from having long hair, when the military came to cut his hair the scissors could not cut through instead they made sparks! And from the ring: Silat world champion and researcher O'ong Maryono also tells the story how he learned ilmu kebal, and used it. In this forum, Sulaiman of Gayong Espana has experienced and written about his experience 'mandi minyak' -bathing in boiling oil, demonstrating his school's version of tenaga dalam.

    Mas Tristan, from your stories of real war survival I believe you possess tenaga dalam. I think that for once you are wrong when you claim not to. But then, on the other hand it is the adab and sopan-santun in silat to always speak low of oneself (merendah) isn't it? Listening to Hitler speak I believe he also possessed tenaga dalam - in Jawa the ilmu is called Gelap Ngampar. Soekarno, who once admited to learning public speaking from Hitler, managed to unite a country and proclaim Independence on August 17 1945 without a single drop of blood spilt (never happened before in History, I think) ... that, IMO is also tenaga dalam.

    Maybe many tenaga dalam masters are already experiencing being rich, even though it is sugih tanpa banda (wealthy without riches). At any rate they are rich, culturally. Financial wealth is only attractive to many, not to all. In Indonesia, most silat schools at some stage practise tenaga dalam and recently (since mid 1980's) some have specialized in tenaga dalam only. They have big schools and are all over the world. All of them could be quacks and illussionists but I don't think so.

    Warm salaams to all,
  3. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Assalamualikum Bram,
    As you know, I grew up in Indonesia, eventhough I had spend my adulthood in the USA. I still remembered many stories about the silat legends. With all do respect to everyone and to you, I don't encourage everyone to agree with my opinon. This is just my worthless opinion. My family is a very devoted muslim, we all do practiced martial arts, my father and uncle aware of the extra curicular practiced in silat, but they decided not to pursue it, they don't bother with that at all. As far as their concern, silat practice is for gerak badan, period. My uncle always said: "Don't make a big deal of it". So I don't.
    I also agree with you Mas Bram, wealth is not how much money one had but the peace, harmony and happiness. However, many so called silat master, sign a rank/title certificate with their names on it for a token. This is being very common this day. People coming to visit for a week, a month or less than one year and come back to the USA with a Pendekar certificate, how could that be?
    With all do respect to you and O'ong, as far as IPSI silat fights tournament. I was not impress at all. Either the rule is not open for safety reason I don't know. I suggested everyone who study silat, if you want to compete, don't just compete in silat tournament, compete in an open tournament, you will be facing all style of martial arts students, I guarrantee you, it was fun :)
    Time to bragg here, in the 70's I used to compete in an open tournament in the east coast. For kata or form, I performed a Shotokan Katas ie: Gojushiho/Kanku/Unshu/Gankaku. For weapon I perform kata from Omory Ryu, Katana, sai/bo/Kama/jo and sometimes I did the dua belati (two knifes form from silat) and For Fighting I performed silat moves. I have total over 250 trophies and over 60 grandchampion trophies for kumite meaning I had to fight the middleweight or heavyweight champion, since I'm in the lightweight divisions to win the grandchampion trophy. I heard my looser stories too, some of them always said, I can't fight you because my techniques is to kill :) yeah right, ********!
    I was young, stupid, careless, ADHD/PTSD and I love to fight..
    Now I'm old, grumpie and still shamlessly stupid :)

    Brother Steve, do your remember the name of the millionare person who had promised one million dollars to anyone can proof that they possessed unantural power or ET power? :)

    I think the free speach sometime get in to me too much :)
    My appology to everyone!
  4. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Everyone has tenaga dalam ...

    ... and then again it depends on what one means by tenaga dalam.
    I believe that in me, it is how I use my body-core to provide me with good principles for movement and reaction. Can I death touch anyone? Not at all!! I am only maximising that which I already have ... the muscles and tendons of my body. For me ilmu tenaga dalam is the art/science of maximising what you already have from a physical perspective ... and that is why I'll never be a jago boxing ... :D

    But is it tenaga dalam then? Well, I call it that. I've watched your video's Mas Tristan (your website) and I would say with-out a doubt that you have what I define as tenaga dalam. Surviving a fire-fight or a conflict zone doesn't necessarily mean that one has tenaga dalam though (from my own definition) ... it usually means that you're lucky :woo:

    As for other type of tenaga dalam ... it's like Qi ... it's a personal thing, I don't believe in it, but if someone else insists it's what makes their reality that is fine too :cool: . If people think they have it, well and good ... but I'm not thinking about Qi or tenaga dalam for that matter when I have to deal with a drunken 6 foot built like a freight train foot-baller or a person with a grudge who wants a piece of me ... which happens regularly in my line of work (I work security and crowd control to put food on my family table :D)

  5. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Spiritual Silat - Exoticism ?

    Wa'alaikum salam Mas Tristan,

    It is interesting that your Uncle talked about Gerak Badan (body movement) rather than Olah Raga (body developing) ... My teacher also called his school Persatuan Gerak Badan - Union of Body Movement. My school also doesn't teach wowow tenaga-dalam and we never demonstrate kebal or breaking steel bars or anything like it. We do use tenaga dalam for healing though, and to get it we train hard in our gerak badan and olah nafas (breath development).

    My beloved late teacher used to often say: Don't put your trust in miracles rather understand that discipline will bring progress. No sweat no control of the knowledge. But I see other schools do different things with their tenaga dalam and as a lover of history I know that much of what is in the museum of Kraton Kasepuhan Cirebon (oldest Islamic Kraton still there) is debus equipment.

    I agree with you that IPSI tournaments are not imppressive especially for silat connosieurs. What I was trying to say was that in the beginning of Indonesia Merdeka, most masters thought that competitions in the Western way would be running against silat philosophy. Having said that I believe that Cak O'ong did win open tournaments too, not only the silat competitions. And he used to be a street fighter as well, and he felt he needed ilmu kebal when he was young and he sought it and mastered it. His experience is documented in his (to me) interesting book Pencak Silat Merentang Waktu.

    Mas Tristan, I don't think that there are that many Pendekar in the USA who have been some months in the Bogor or Banten area and come back with glossy certificates. Maybe only one particular man comes to mind. But having said that, anyone from the First World wishing to have a Pendekar certificate could go to a small traditional school and with smiles over coffee without much hassle, get one. People would be happy to humor her and would in fact feel honoured, especially if the pendekar wannabe designs and words the English version of the certificate themselves and smells of dollars :love: :love: . Only one Pendekar comes to mind as having done this with spelling mistakes and whole Arabic sentences missing from his certificate :cool: .

    My problem with this practise is when people collect the pendekar certificates from a traditional school and then set up their own different version, using the certificates only to make themselves more credible. This practise I would say would be durhaka especially if the traditional school was hoping to get an overseas exponent of their art when they signed the certificate. The people in the kampung have to scrape for food while the foreign Pendekar changes the art to suit herself and make money worldwide. That, I think is not fair to the kind people who signed her certificate in the first place.

    And then if they go on and teach wowowo magick and so on saying that this is the way it is done back home :Alien: ... wah wah, that is simply outrageous! Spiritual silat is not marketing exoticism.

    Warm salaams to all,
  6. Wali

    Wali Valued Member
  7. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    explaining bobster

    if you think it's impossible to do Silat without being spiritual, how do you explain me?

    Wondering why I'm getting involved with this again,[/QUOTE]

    hi bobster,
    thanks for your post -I am very happy we can discuss this subject respectfully without falling into cliches and dogma.
    for me spirituality does not necessarily translate as religion.
    Spirituality describes your own sense of place in the world, the universe and life.
    It describes your beliefs , feelings and intuitions about where you were before you were incarnated here, and where you will be when you dis incarnated ( sorry if thats not a real term )

    from what you write I am guessing you are what labelling types would label Rational materialist - ie if i dont see or feel it it doesnt exist.

    To me that IS your sense of spirituality - you see you cannot escape !

    spirituality is to me a basic ingredient of the human condition, we all have it , its just the forms or beliefs that it takes that are different.

    To add to that , I would like to restate Brams post earlier about islam.
    this is , as you rightly pointed out one of the annoying things about discussing with muslims , we see everything as coming from and returning to god.

    for us Islam did not originate with the Prophet Muhammad ( peace and blessings upon him for ever ) but came with the first man, the Prophet Adam ( peace be upon him .)

    In that light it is nonsense to speak of silat predating islam - it does not. We are accepting Buddah , Moses etc as well as 124000 other messengers that we do not know the names of as messengers of god - all teaching the same thing - to prepare now for what will come later -
    to prepare from your youth for your old age
    from your health for your sickness
    from your life for your death

    a lot of people speak about unity of belief, brotherhood of man etc , and for me this is Islam - we are all coming from and going to the same destination , the only differences are the sights weve seen and the conclusions we have drawn from them !
    peace to you my brother
  8. sulaiman

    sulaiman Valued Member

    Salaams all ,

    I actually agree with wali here .
    There are undoubtedly good Jinn as the Holy quran also states that the jinn said
    ~Some of us are righteous , and some of us are otherwise . we are parties differing
    72 : 11

    but the problem is, the ones you are most likely to encounter are the devious ones trying to trick you.

    Leave the unseen as just that -UNSEEN , God made it that way for a reason , I have seen a lot of peolple with an unhealthy interest in the jinn go , lets say a bit weird.

    In learning silat I am following the way of my master, we train and sweat,
    then train and sweat , and to finish more training and sweating - no blood sacrifices involved at all , We all end up with the silat we have earned.

  9. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member


    Thank you for a great response, I appreciate the views of people like yourself!
    I don't often get to speak with Silat practitioners who have as open a mind as you, and I always walk away with new insight when I do.

    I guess what I meant to do here is caveat that by saying "It predates Islam's arrival in Indonesia" obviously not "in the WORLD".

    I would still be open to somebody demonstrating Silat Debus of any kind, as long as you didn't ask me to suspend disbelief. In America, we have a saying: "Believe in Chi (Tenaga Dalam) all you want, but bet your money on the street fighter."
  10. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Thank you Wali, If you think by smoothing me, I would forget your promise to buy me dinner at Indonesian Restaurant in Lincester, you are dead wrong :)
    You owe me dinner bro :)
  11. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Salam Mas Krisno and Mas Bram,
    Thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear from tanah air (home country) that the majority of silat gurus are not been bought :)
    When I left Jakarta in 1968, I don't hear much about silat perguruan and the silat system. Karate is much more recognized. And currently I heard Indonesia have over 400 silat system...;)
    My dad and I used to visit PORKI (Indonesian karate association)-University of Indonesia di Salemba Raya. Another PORKI we associated with is the one in ATM di Cikini Raya. My dad and my uncle like to compare and contrasted the similarity and the differences between Karate and silat. I love to see the brother discussed the martial arts, get up and perform till wee hour.
    You are right Mas Bram, olah raga and gerak badan are two different things, eventhough sound like the same. Gerak Badan (body movement) is not a sport, even though is a sport oriented and received the benefit of sport. Gerak badan is developement mind and body and spirit. I think?
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

  13. IndraMuda

    IndraMuda Valued Member

    Assalaamu'alaikum and greeting to all. Have not been into this forum for ages.
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

Share This Page