I thought I am fair, honest and truthful! Just to share the facts from islamic perspective Wa’alaikum Mussalam Waramatullahi Wabarakatuh and Assalaamu’alaikum to you, The thread is about “Jinn and spiritual silat” and, YES, the forum is Silat. a- How could one fight or bersilat with an invisible entities without knowing the right attributes? Everything: heaven, earth and anything in between have names and attributes. Without those knowledge, how one going to recognize jinn and what appropriate weapon to use? A keris …… etc? b- How do we know the existence of jinn in the first place? Of course, to the muslim, the source is Al-Quran and Sunnah, that is, The Creator’s (Allah SWT) Qalam?. For other religions, perhaps they have their own sources. Thus, they are free to share or otherwise their views, knowledge or sources. c- Isn’t a pesilat/pendekar is known or required to be bijak, cerdas or panjang akal? d- A practitioner of spiritual silat, particularly a muslim, must understand hukum aqal (intellectual) and syarak (religion). Pesilat from other faiths, perhaps they have their own religion rules. e- Isn’t this forum requires sources of information to be acknowledged for any quotations? By doing so, should it be construed as “DISRESPECT” or, instead, being honest / truth? Guess, I leave it to the forum or thread moderator to decide or to delete the whole postings. Note: Indra/Indera/Deria = in malay it is known referred to the five senses.
Take it to the religous forum, PLEASE! Please take it over to the religous forum, man. Why here? Do you want people from other faiths to think some radical Muslim has now terrorized an internet martial arts forum? I don't preach about Jesus to you. I respect your faith and devotion to Islam, man. I think most of us do. Lay it out about some kind of fight that you've been in (been in one lately?), or battle, or something that might 'enlighten' everyone to something having to do with SILAT and it's understandings. Tristan put it to you best, bra. Step back and look how you come across. Take care, JR p.s. I am gaining understanding of my 'CENTER' more and more since I last talked about it. Very cool! Thanks again everyone!
With all do respect James, I believe it when I see it. Educate me with the Aceh Elang Putih, I have never heard this siat system before. In Indonesia they have a show called Kuda Kepang, where the player ride a make believe horse, dancing around and end up in trance and eating glass, and so on. This is a show case, there is no martial art value in it. I think? If you can't defend yourself with what you have then its time for you to go back to drawing board. Silat is not a big deals, just another sport of gerak badan, many silat players like to mixed and added something, or supernatural things. For what? if I may ask. I believe they learn silat with the wrong reason. And I could be wrong too, Tristan
To share from Islamic Perspective: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 522: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "When you hear the crowing of cocks, ask for Allah's Blessings for (their crowing indicates that) they have seen an angel. And when you hear the braying of donkeys, seek Refuge with Allah from Satan for (their braying indicates) that they have seen a Satan."
If a person is a spiritual person ... this does not necessarily equate to a person with a religion ... then the person in question is practising spiritual silat ... no? For me, silat is an ilmu that fortifies the spirit and the body, and for me I find the answers to spirit in every day life and not necessarily from a book. In that sense I am a spiritual person, I am a part of the universe - alam semesta, and when I play silat, I am celebrating my love for the all encompassing nature of the universe :Angel: er ...... well, that's true some of the time anyway Salam
misguided and misguiding Salaams all , Sorry to be a latecomer to this debate but my computer was eaten by crocodiles and I have a 3 day trek through mosquito infested hell to the nearest town , and you thought spain was all sangria and paella ¿ Sorry indramuda but your statement is wrong. There are many types of jinn , like human beings some are following a right way , some a wrong way. some are indeed fasik , and some are Muslim , Allah Almighty created the jinn and man to worship him - some obey others do not. a little bit of history; The jinn were created millenia before mankind , their father was named miraj and he was given a home on earth , where he started a family with his wife. they were obedient servants of their lord almighty, including their son iblis, and it is related in tradition that there was not 1 spot on earth where Iblis had not made prostration to his lord. The angels were amazed at this and asked their lord to lift him up to heaven so that he could teach them. Then in his wisdom God created a deputy from clay and named him Adam ( peace be upon him ) and ordered all the inhabitants of heaven to bow to Adam - the angels immediately obeyed , but Iblis refused , seeing himself as a better creation than Adam , and was thus expelled from Heavens to earth where he bacame Shaytan the Accursed , and was given the unenviable job of being a test for the sons of Adam. His descendents are called Shayateen and are very numerous and are the main " bad " jinn. They are not ALL the jinn but only a percentage. IBLIS turned traitor on his Lord and that is why mendurhaka ( spelling ) is always mentioned in the Silat Melay bayat - it is the characteristic of shaytan and has no place in the adab of silat. The negative effects of the Shaytan in their mission to destroy mankind is to create and spread doubt, hypocrisy, disobedience, pride, selfishness, greed , arrogance,covetousness, vanity, inflame anger and fanatisicm and our love of the world - sorry to say but they are doing a bang up job - may God protect us and deliver us. Anyway , thats the downside - dont confuse shayateen with all jinn - most of them are just regular guys trying to get on with their daily lives , and to stay as far away from us as possible. I have created jinns and men that they may worship me - Holy Quran Al Zaariyat 56 It has been revealed to me that a company of jinns listened to the Holy Quran. They said " we have really heard a wonderful recital. It gives guidance to the right and we have believed therein. we shall not join( in worship ) any with our Lord. Al Jinn ( 72 ) 1& 2 Footnote Whilst I myself do not like cut and paste sections of quran being posted, or in IBA style monologues , I have to defend the right of this forum to cover ground usually thought of as being the domain of " Religion " . You cannot discuss silat without discussing spirituality, faith, belief and self knowledge, it would be like a food forum that only looked at the calorific and nutritional value of the food and forgot all about TASTE::: Peace sulaiman
Hi Sulaiman, I have to respectufully disagree with you, and say that there is no such thing as a 'good jinn'. Jinns always ask for something before offering their 'help'. This is usually some sort of blood sacrifice, as there is life in the blood. I have seen the devastation that this causes, even when the people thought they were dealing with 'good' jinn. My advice is to steer well clear. Peace, Wali
Silat is not spiritual Hi Sulaiman, peace be upon you. With respect, I disagree with you: Perhaps a Malay or Indonesian cannot discuss Silat without also including spirituality, but I think that's cultural, not art-specific. Pencak Silat doesn't demand spirituality, but Islam does. There is plenty of Silat in America, and we can easily seperate what is religion and what is not. There is nothing in Silat that promotes a relationship with God unless you include it yourself (i.e. meditation, prayer, religious rituals). Now as far as religions go, Islam has a more demanding dictum than most others. Your belief is that all (human) actions come from God, and whatever happens is the will of God. So to you (and many of my own teachers) a Sapu or a Langkah isn't initiated by you, it's initiated by God. We (America) don't see it that way, and clearly you can do Silat without being a spiritual person. I myself am a nonbeliever, but if I may humbly add, I am known for my Silat, even in Indonesia. I just returned from Bandung last month, and the people in the village we trained at, as well as Cimande Tarik Kolot, not only remembered me from my previous visits but remembered my abilities as well. This is not to brag or anything, just to say that you see it as a spiritual aspect...But you (as a muslim) see EVERYTHING as a spiritual aspect! To the western mind, the spiritual and the sensual are often seperated by thought and free will. And I do not see Pencak Silat as solely a Malay or Indonesian art! It is merely practiced by people who are primarily Muslims...But this is the law of the minimum! If your COUNTRY is 90% Muslim, then your ART has a high probability of being practiced mostly by Muslims, that's just common sense. But it DOESN'T make it a Muslim martial art! You didn't bring up this point personally, by the way, but I see it in almost every discussion about Silat that turns religious so I thought I would bring it out in the open. Quoted from Indra Muda: INVISIBLE ENTITIES??!? You will have to show me, I have never even seen one, let alone had to FIGHT one! I'm sorry, but I am from a very different school: If I can touch it & it breathes, I can kill it. If you cannot see it, don't worry about it. Oh, it may be there, but I have yet to feel an attack (or anything) from it! If you are going for a ranking in Islam maybe, not in Silat. Also, that's cultural to the Nusantara, not Silat in general. Aha, a practitioner of SPIRITUAL Silat! Well, once again, you will have to show me. I have a LOW opinion of Nampun & other Ulin who claim trances, spirituality & oogah-boogah to accomplish what strong basic Silat teaches. Last month a man offered to show me Pamacan Silat, where you go into a trance to become a tiger, and nothing can hurt you. He claimed he could be stabbed and it wouldn't hurt. I said "Fine, I'll pay to see that, but only on one condition: I GET TO STAB YOU MYSELF!" The "pendekar" saw the look in my eyes and declined & didn't want to do the trance for fear of me. And believe me, I WOULD have stabbed him! From Tristan Sutrisno: Yes, that's how I see it. Not the "sport" part in my opinion, but certianly everything else. The influences from other cultures in Silat (and the Nusantara itself) can be clearly seen: Language, food, dress, religion and martial arts are all products of foreign imports transplanted into the Nusantara, and then mixed with the native beliefs. Religion is a part of our daily lives here in America just as it is for you in M'asia. But it's not as ingrained at the minutae as it is to you. And if you think it's impossible to do Silat without being spiritual, how do you explain me? Wondering why I'm getting involved with this again,
Now we have closure! I think the last few posts state all our cases, both for the Muslim camp and the non Muslim camp. Thank-you brothers Suleiman, Wali, Orang Jawa & Bobster ... and Bobster, I completely agree about the 90% bit ... silat was around IMO long before the Wali Songo began their mission of Islamisasi of the archipelago ... but the 90% figure (Musllim population) means that a lot of silat was also influenced by Islam. Interesting thing though history ... Sunan Bonang (Bon Ang) was probably Chinese , and I think the Chinese influence in Indonesia (and Malaysia) is waaaay under-rated. Swept under the carpet so to speak ... so effectively that most of the population do not even consider its influence ... on many cultural aspects. Salam
Assalaamu'Alaaykum Well this is incorrect statement, there are good jinns as the Qur'aan affirms this: Say (O Muhammad ): "It has been revealed to me that a group (from three to ten in number) of jinns listened (to this Qur'ân). They said: 'Verily! We have heard a wonderful Recital (this Qur'ân)! These Jinns became Muslims, and if one reads the books on Jinns such as An Essay on the Jinn by Abu Ameenaah Bilal Philips will give the reader more information on types and aims etc of the jinns. http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=2340&dgn=4 And of course, its all the evil jinns who require you to commit kufr (disbelief), as the good Muslim Jinns, doesn't interfere with us. Wa'alaaykum'salaam.
Just keep the discussion to Jinn, Djin, or whatever other name for the same entities... I'm happy enough to allow some religious discussion, IF it is RELEVANT to the discussion at hand.
Well maybe based on what you have been taught, as oppossed to what you have personally experienced. This is the difference here. I am pulling out of this thread, as the moment the Bible, Quran, etc... get mentioned, we start to pull away from silat, and things can get "sticky". My advice remains to steer well clear. People have the free will to do as they choose, so it's ultimately up to the individual. Regards, Wali
Salam silat everyone, If you talk about Jinn, then you are using an Islamic category and the Islamic perspective, in my experience and knowledge is what Bro Sulaiman wrote. There are good Jinn - will the good Jinn be slaves to Man? NO! The good Jinn, like the good Man, are slaves only to Allah. I met Steve Benitez after he came back from a long fast in Cimande land and he had experienced people politiking and fighting through Jinn. He told me that all Jinn are bad but in my opinion, he just meant to say that all the Jinn he had contact with were bad. The Qur'an -source of Jinn knowledge for Man, states there are good Jinn. I believe the Qur'an more than Steve Benitez. As for silat being around before Walisongo, yes of course. The oldest written mention is in Kidung Sundayana, in the story of the Pajajaran king and Princess going to Majapahit to marry Hayam Wuruk. Sadly there were protocol misunderstandings resluting in the killing of all the Sunda entourage, including the suicide of Dyah Pitaloka the Princess who was to marry hayam Wuruk, king of Majapahit. The Sunda entourage had all sort of different ulin / silat to show but they were no match for the elephant coloumns from Tuban. Not all the 9 Wali in the Walisongo practised silat either, neither were they a single united entity. However if you go to the Kraton Kasepuhan in Cirebon you will see all sorts of debus equipment which clearly shows that the Islamization of Jawa did involve silat and more spesifically debus. There are many secrets in the universe of energy and if Bobster doesn't have respect for Uwa Nampon I feel that reflects more on Bobster's own arrogance and has nothing to do with the quality of Uwa Nampon's play. Please refrain from slagging of what you don't understand. Chinese influence in Indonesia is rather well documented and researched. What is completely lacking is written documents of Indonesia's influence on China! Warm salaams to all... KC.
Hi Kiai, thanks for the response. I honestly don't think it's arrogance, I have given Ulin Nampon (and for that matter SEVERAL styles of Silat Debus) a chance, and it always comes back to the same thing: If you can't make it work, I won't pretend. There is nothing wrong with the PRACTICE of it per se, and I actually enjoyed the Jurus & Jurus Kombanisi of Ulin Nampon. But I have met four pendekars of the style, and although they could make it work on thier own students, they could not make it work on me. That's not arrogance, that's just the truth. They tried and tried, and only when they actually HIT me with thier fist did they get a result. I was very respectful to them, and thanked them for thier time, but they did not convince me of the usefulness of Silat Debus. So, this is where my low opinion of Nampon comes from. If you have seen different, I congratulate you.
So, if I for arguements sake believe that jinn do exist, how would you distinguish between Jinn Islam and Jin kaffir? However, at the risk of prolonging this whole jinn thread I will try to view this anthropologically Please don't get all offended & hot and bothered So, in a very small nutshell....Jinn were created from fire way before Adam. They occupy the 'space' between humans and angels. Mohammed (peace be upon him) was sent to convert not only man but jinn also. There are consequently both good & bad jinn (Jinn Islam & Jinn Kaffir). That is probably a very simplistic take on things, but for the sake of discussion... I would again merely view this as religious syncretism. The jinn are pre-Islamic and remenants of animist belief. This is a functional way to make religious conversion more accesible. Smooths the road between belief systems as it were. So, at the risk of offending any fundamentalist beliefs, this is a common trait when animist beliefs become monothiestic. It is surely more allegory & metaphor representing the change of belief system. Many of what are now known as jinn in Indonesia were certainly part of the belief system before the arrival of Islam. So, I'll await the backlash.
Why is it that Jinn stories are always inevitably bad. I have yet to hear stories of Jinn helping out, or benefiting anyone. They are always stories of them demonising, terrorising and otherwise causing distress.
How else to gain an advantage over your enemies without actually physicaly killing them? There is much tukan sihir(kinda black magic) in Indonesia if you want something sorted out...ah, my last boss springs to mind :yeleyes: This inevitably permeates Silat. I think sometimes non-muslims have a very difficult time understanding an Islamic perspective. The simple fact is jinn play a part in Al Qu'ran, so to question their existance is to question the truth of Al Qu'ran. This is why it's a subject likely to cause offence. Kinda like going to a Catholic Mass and proclaiming Mary was obviously not a virgin Sometimes I take a purely functional view of religion, but this in no way reflects my respect of others beliefs. By the way this thread has just caused a minor domestic My wife is going to prove some of these things to me next time we're in Indonesia
Good Jinn and Bad Jinn Warm salaams everyone, Wali, I am sure you know of the folk-tale Al'a Dien and his magic lamp? The most famous worldwide Holywood approved Jinn story is about a nice Jinn. What happens in the 'world' of Jinn and Indonesian (silat) communities is that usually the Jinn's activoties reflect the fights and feuds that are present underneath the surface of the smiling people. Not nice stuff, not nice Jinns. Gajah, like the idea of Allah, the Ka'bah, the Hajj, fasting, ruku, sujud, du'a ... many things in Islam are pre-Islam, in fact, according to Muhammad s.a.w the Prophets before him were also all Islam. The one true belief followed by Adam, Noah, Solomon, David, Jesus and all other prophets minor or major is generically called Islam, in Islamic traditions. Some scholars of the Liberal camp in Islam believe that people like Buddha and belief systems that are wholistic and contain understanding and compasion for the universe, like Hinduism, Daoism, are also generally speaking, Islam. Bobbe, if it is not arrogance then all is cool. I have heard (an experienced) that in many of the Margaluyu derived tenaga dalam schools, and also in Nampon, the long-distance hitting can only work when the partner is emotionally intent on attacking, and doesn't work in training scenarios unless the partner has trained to act emotional. To praise Ulin Nampon let's remember that Soekarno practised Ulin Nampon while in Bandung and later as President he survived several assassination attempts. One, the famous Cikini bomb, blew up right beside him, and he remained unscathed. I also heard that an Ulin Nampon player was also unscathed by the 7/7 extremist bomb on the No 30 London Bus in Russel Square a year today. Bobbe if your silat can help you survive standing beside a blowing up bomb or a hand-grenade then it must be as good as Ulin Nampon. Bobbe, I too have tried having tenaga-dalam students attack me from affar - like they do in their training amongst themselves- and like you, nothing happens. It is because I am not really emotionally charged with intent to harm them, they say, and I believe them because they are trustworthy people who say this. That is why most of these schools advise against sparring with the general public as in a friendly sparring bout the ilmu doesn't work. This is actually the criticism that many silat schools offer to the tenaga dalam schools. Not everyday you are going to be attacked by an emotional assailant. Warm salaams to all... Bram.
Within nature there are unseen intelligences which are good, bad and neutral. Personally I do think it is wrong to say all unseen intelligent beings within nature are bad or evil. By sacrificing blood unseen beings of a bad nature will most certainly be attracted by it. The smell of the dung heap attracts fly’s and the sent of a rose attracts bees and butterflys, no different in the unseen world.
