Discussion of universal (?) sword principles

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Stolenbjorn, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    This thread is started as suggested by mr.Sims.
    On this thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=10605277 , I found some topics interresting to discuss, but IMO it deteriorated into a ****ing contest, and while it's fun to watch, it's hardly constructive...

    So I'll readress my initial questions and finally post my preliminary oppinions here, and hope this thread becomes as interresting as many other threads on WMA-forum and weapon-forum have been before.

    Question#1
    On the video, it seems that the step comes before the strike; is this how the swordsystem is intended to be, or is it a flawed performance in the video (I have done several things on video where I admit that I've had a flawed execution of technique)

    Question#2
    On the previous thread, I got the impression that you, mr.sims means that controlling the centreline is not crucial/important or essensial in your MA, a consept that -to me, so far -have been regarded as an universal... Was this just me misunderstanding you or misreading you, or have I understood you correctly? If so, could you tell how you get around -hehe :rolleyes: that principle?

    Preliminary thought:
    I think that your ma is what I call form-focused, and that there is more emphasis on keeping the excact form in the katas than stress-testing them. I further think that during the generations and decades, subtle parts of the once combat efficiant system is lost, and that the system gradually "deteriorates" into a hollow copy of what once was there.

    Now, I stand ready to be corrected :)
     
  2. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Just a little info on me, as you like to know where people come from.
    I've only trained historical european martial arts. For roughly 3 years I learned under Colin Richards, and when he left for germany and started "Arts of Mars", I started instructing here in southern Norway, and have attended international workshops, like Dijon and Swordfish. Now, I've trained/studyed for some 7 years. I'm sorry, but videos of me is on facebook.
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    "........................
    Question#1
    On the video, it seems that the step comes before the strike; is this how the swordsystem is intended to be, or is it a flawed performance in the video (I have done several things on video where I admit that I've had a flawed execution of technique)
    ....................."


    There is going to be a small "chicken-or-the-egg"-moment while I figure out if we need to talk about the centerline first and motion second or vice-versa. In the matter of motion, however, the step contacts the ground prior to the blade contacting the target. The concept is called KI-GEOM-CHAI (lit: "energy-sword-body") and some arts teach the issue as a simultaneous contact between ground and target.

    ".........................
    On the previous thread, I got the impression that you, mr.sims means that controlling the centreline is not crucial/important or essensial in your MA, a consept that -to me, so far -have been regarded as an universal... Was this just me misunderstanding you or misreading you, or have I understood you correctly? If so, could you tell how you get around -hehe that principle?
    .........................."


    The difference lies in the idea of what a person calls a "centerline". In the Japanese arts the line is a direct orientation between two individuals and all execution is in reference to that orientation. In this way a conflict between one person and a number of attackers is essentially a rapid series of sequences in which each person is engaged, orientation established and strategy followed before moving on to the next individual and repeating the sequence.

    In Korean sword the matter of orientation is accomplished across a spherical 360 degrees, concerning the most threatening target in the sphere. There is a line of thought that this "fluid" appoach to determining a given centerline proceeds from the fluid nature of hunting on horseback from which later warfare on horseback descends. I don't know that this has ever been absolutely determined. What I can say is that Korean sword relates to a greater degree with the melee' nature of combat rather than a more linear manner of engagement.

    BTW: There is an interesting anecdote concerning the initial landings of Mongol forces in Japan in which reports concerning the fighting skils of the Mongols were essentially characterized as "barbaric" and "unrefined" in that they refused to dismount and engage in single combat. I'm sure the Japanese warrior would have been much more appreciative had the Mongols done so..... but it just wasn't their style. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    In budo there is the saying assert control in general (360 degrees) by being aware of the environment and potential threat and over the centrelines in particular.

    The first centreline is thought of as a vertical line drawn on the swordsman from head to foot. The head,eyes,throat solar plexus and wrist (if the sword is held directly infront of or above the body all lie on this centreline which MUST be protected.

    Taisabaki body movement from the hips allows movement in all directions to allow protection 360%

    The second centreline is called ken sen the lines of attack the enemy may use and these must be controlled or suppressed .

    All attacks and counters are along the kensen.

    Below I have opened the ken sen of my opponent by changing the rythm of the attack by catching him when he was hesitant or uncertain.

    While attacking his centreline my sword remains covering MY centreline as I attack along the ken sen any large movement or attempt to attack around the ken sen shall be easily countered.

    Enten Jizai attack and defence as one. I have held the sword back rather than strike the opponent.The sword should be extended to strike the head at the exact instant my feet touch the ground.



    regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  5. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    This is interresting!
    My WMA-teacher (teaching me most italian, but allso some german + silver), have taught me that the blade strikes the target (thus controlling the centerline between the two fighters) just before the moving foot hits the ground. Some interpetates an italian system Fiore di Liberi; Flos Duellatorum's consept "the coverta" as him first striking the opponents blade, then moving and killing (a sort of two-stage attact, as opposed to the german "masterstrikes" that are both attacks and covers in one stage).

    I think I understand what you writhe this:
    In my initial question, I had the duel-setting in mind, but if I understand you correctly, you train in a mulit-opponent environment, and thus tries to adapt a more fluent wiew on the centerline, as one fights in a 360* environment. Fiore's stances allso endorse 360*-environment stances, where for instance the "tail-guard" towards attacker#1 in front easily transforms to "Boars-tooth" against attacker#2 to the rear, or "posta breva" against attacker #3, 90* to the right.

    I'm allso fighting in re-enactment-fights, and allthough there is no emphasis on actual historical techniques, you die rather quickly if you don't master the consepts from actual fighting. When fighting in the line, with most people wielding spears, you have the possebility to be killed by up to 5 people at once. In that sort of environment, you allways keep centre towards whoever you deem the greatest threat, but at the same time, other consepts (allso important in duel-combat) are perhaps more important: timing, deception, and controlling distance. It is a very good feeling to stand in the line with a two-hand-spear, seeing that 5 blokes down the enemy line, a belly is left unprotected, stabbing him, and seeing him curse as he retreats out of the line :evil:

    -So when it comes to the centerline, we'd probably agree over a pint of beer :) As of the strike-step-question, I think that I'd have to see the consept as you describe it in order to be convinced that it would work "for real". I constantly pictures the underarms/hands/head getting hit if the sword comes after foot..
     
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The japanese sword cuts on the "push/pull" principle so we must have the power and momentum of the hips to deliver an effective cut. hence the ki (intent) ken (cut) tai (body alignment and movement) ichi as one.There is also tsurugi a slight "wringing" of the hands to centralise the sword cut.

    Any time the body preceeds the sword we shall be thrust or cut.

    regards koyo

    Deceptive photo. It may look like Gerry has made a cut to the head but in fact John has deflected the cut defending his centreline and simultaneousl attacked the wrist.

    Crosstraining with these guys reaches you a lot about centreline defence.:evil:
     

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    "................
    In my initial question, I had the duel-setting in mind, but if I understand you correctly, you train in a mulit-opponent environment, and thus tries to adapt a more fluent wiew on the centerline, as one fights in a 360* environment. Fiore's stances allso endorse 360*-environment stances, where for instance the "tail-guard" towards attacker#1 in front easily transforms to "Boars-tooth" against attacker#2 to the rear, or "posta breva" against attacker #3, 90* to the right.
    .............................."


    Yes..... there is no doubt that if one were to want to use Korean sword work as the basis for, say, a duel (1:1), it would definitely be worth a person's while to say increase attention to the sorts of influences of either Japanese (for SSANGSOODO applications) or Chinese (for TO or GEOM applications). Practitioners of Japanese arts will no doubt recall that protocols for fighting in battles accepted that individuals would personally challenge other individuals of rank in what amounted to "personal duels". However, Korean battlefields observed no such structure. The ability to engage assorted weapons attacking from various angles and vectors is held paramount to 1:1 engagement. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I love your examples, Koyo and have not had a chance to ask a Japanese pratitioner this question.

    Based on your experience with your art, what provisions are made for dealing with a melee situation where one might find himself vulnerable to attack from any angle? I ask this because while Korean sword purports to account for this I have wondered to what degree Japanese influences might have helped in this regard. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    That's an important principle of swordsmanship. Also, moving the body first telegraphs your intent to your opponent, actually giving him MORE reaction time.

    I'd like also to address Stolenbjorn's point about form deteriorating over time to non-effectiveness. We've seen this in Chinese swordsmanship for sure. Much CSA has devolved to mere dances holding a blade, and the actual combat applications of the forms has been lost over the centuries. However, the information is still there. People like Scott Rodell are working on reconstruction of actual combat techniques hidden in the forms. According to Scott himself, the reconstruction is about 10 years behind Western groups like ARMA.

    Take a look at this excellent video:

    Rediscovering the Chinese Long Sword

    Note the stances starting at about 2:54. German stylists will recognize many of the stances, and others are also in the Italian tradition as well. I found it interesting to find a distinctly German guard (Schrankhut) shown at the bottom middle of the page. Also shown are variations on Vom Tag and Short Serpent. Also Hawke, Pflug, and Schlussel and Tail are shown at 3:10.

    Now, given that the stances are so similar, finding analogous techniques would stand to reason, since certain techniqes flow from certain stances automatically. It's simple body mechanics... universal principles apply, as Koyo put so well earlier.

    So Bruce, with regards to moving the body before the sword, my question is this: how do you keep from getting shredded by the opposition upon entry? The only way I can envision this working is taking a step while the opponent is out of range, and then countering his entry without footwork. However, by planting and THEN cutting, you're robbing the cut of body momentum, since your body weight is already in the ground by the time the blade hits, though decent power is still available. You're also not using the sword's protective capability by presenting a threat before the target. Every other sword art that I'm aware of either wants the foot landing a little bit behind the strike, or simultaneous with it, the reason being it is a good compromise between power and safety. So what is the principle being used to keep the swordsman safe in this instance?

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    "......................
    So Bruce, with regards to moving the body before the sword, my question is this: how do you keep from getting shredded by the opposition upon entry? The only way I can envision this working is taking a step while the opponent is out of range, and then countering his entry without footwork. However, by planting and THEN cutting, you're robbing the cut of body momentum, since your body weight is already in the ground by the time the blade hits, though decent power is still available. You're also not using the sword's protective capability by presenting a threat before the target. Every other sword art that I'm aware of either wants the foot landing a little bit behind the strike, or simultaneous with it, the reason being it is a good compromise between power and safety. So what is the principle being used to keep the swordsman safe in this instance?
    ..............................."


    I think what you are talking about is what we call a teum (lit: " a hole"). Since the pronounciation of this word sounds like the English word "tomb" the standing joke is that "you either watch for a teum or wind up in one".

    I, Korean sword this is dealt with by first acknowleging that no cut, or thrust, does not produce a teum just as a matter of execution. However this is off-set by the matter that each technique has a built in deflection or parry in its execution. I could wax eloquent about this for days but Koyo's clip demonstrating the deflection and downward cut is an excellent example of the premise at its most basic.

    Beginners in Korean sword learn the cut and the parry as separate techniques. Over time these seemingly two separate bits meld together. In this way, for instance, a steep descending cut would first require that the individual raise his sword to either an 11 o'clock or one o'clock position, depending on the cut. Ordinarily this would open a person to a thrust. However, when done in response to an attack, the raising of the sword is actually a very subtle "outside parry" which is then followed by the cut.

    When performed in a form this nuanced move is almost always lost on observers, but there are quite a few bits like that. Does this help?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and intimidate /dominate the spirit of the enemy.
    Enten jizai states that all attacks are simultaneously defensive moves so "no thought of defence" is needed. Only one thing is in the mind the ki or intention to cut the enemy.

    If one had this kind of spirit perhaps in a melee situation the enemy would look elsewhere for an opponent.Or you could survive by "raging" through the battle.

    Washing over an opponent is another principle of japanese swordsmanship striking him with your body and never "holding the same ground" for any length of time.

    Our training in sword and empty hand techniques is ALWAYS to feel that there is more than one attacker so many movements are done so as to use one to block or impede the other.

    However if two advanced swordsmen meet and have the principles of attack at all times both may be injured one may die or both may die. In a melee it is in the hands of the gods.

    Below I had asked for an attack and the guys forever enthusiastic all jumped up and all I could do was enter up the side of the nearest attacker to get the second I needed to ask for a single uke. That was fun.I didn't even get a chance to get my sword into guard before I had to "squeeze" in between Chris who attacked and Derek who was about to.

    To answer the question I would say it is down to mobility and decisive striking "neither the sword or the man must linger" and STRONG fighting spirit. You can still fight if injured but if you lose your fighting spirit..it is over.


    regards koyo
     

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Hence the Master Strikes in German Longsword... close the line his attack is coming from and cut him down. If you don't hit him outright, work from the bind to the next opening, giving him no opportunity to attack. Even better, attack FIRST, choosing the strike that breaks his guard, shutting down all likely lines of counterattack, forcing him to defend or let himself get hit. If he tries to attack from the guard as you strike, his counter will be deflected and he will be hit, just as if he had no sword at all. Just do not choose the wrong strike or you make it possible for him to counter in single time. If he strikes the correct Master Strike first, then you must likely bind and try to regain the initiative immediately or perish. Or void and attempt to reset the distance if there's rtoom to do so. If you're unsure what to do at the bind, might as well rush in and grapple him, since you're safer when you're closer rather than being in the way of the sword's ideal point of impact.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  13. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    IMHO this explains the "centerline"-think, where I think we all seem to agree, just having different words for it.

    As for what goes first; body or weapon, I did not get it. When I freespar and enter with a strike, just rushing in on the centerline, I allways go weapon first, as the opponent just would have to stand with the point towards me to win. (Anyway, no european system that I know about recomends rushing in on the centerline, everybody endorse traversing. But as the adrenalin pumps, the opponent have made an error, or the brain works high-speed...)

    But even when I try to execute "proper" historical attacks with traverses to the left or right as I strike, I sometimes mess up the timing and ends up going body before the strike -I usually ends up beeing cut in the head/shoulder/arm.

    -unless we're only talking past eachother again; the thing you said about a parry first-thing.. that makes me think if you're talking about the same thing as Fiore, when he's talking about the "coverta" (i mentioned it earlier in this thread as well). He does something that could be interpreted as going body/parry first, then strike (but actually it's all in one motion). Words are so difficult to communicate with... :rolleyes:
     
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    As I work it, if someone is holding the centreline with say langenort (standing with the sword extended pointing at the opponent), you have three choices. Maneuver and cycle guard until you opponent leaves langenort. Attack the weapon to gain control of the centreline and continue with second intention or change the angle of entry and thus change the centreline of the action. You wouldn't ever move into range and then attack.
    In battlefield context this gets limited further since you cannot change the angle of entry and you cannot maneuver as an individual. So you are left with attacking the weapon to seize the centreline. This is why the two handed sword was never a successful regimental weapon. A spear is far better a tool for formation fighting. It is also why I am alittle unsure why Bruce talks about the 1vs1 is not what the Korean system is used for. Does he mean it is a regimental battlefied system or is it designed for use against an ambush by superior numbers?

    The Bear.
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    And that is where we need to stop listening to "oral traditions" and start doing objective research to get some answers for you, Bear. Here are some things to consider.

    1.) Not everyone was trained the same or with the same goals in mind in Korea. Military service, from a Korean POV was strictly for the security of the Homeland. Koreans did not view military action as a viable method of international diplomacy. As a result the standing army was kept very small-- perhaps as little as 3,000 on paper. In actuality the entire force itself may have been considerably smaller. These soldiers were of average training and ability.

    2.) The larger portion of the Korean military force consisted of corvee troops or individuals who were pressed into service as needs such as disaster, rebellion or invasion arose. The individuals were taught basic military methods and science perhaps as often as once a month or as little as once every 6 months.

    3.) The foundation for corvee training were methods taken from the Chinese as exemplified by Gen. QI JI-guang (1528-1587) which centered on squad tactics known loosely as the "mandarin duck" formation. Put simply, the essence of mandarin duck was to obstruct and ensnare attackers, using a variety of polearms, causing them to expend more energy than the defenders and then counter-attack when the attackers energy was observed to flag. To this point we have a stong Chinese influence with a stong focus on battlefield tactics.

    4.) Another contribution to Korean sword is the military sword taught just prior to WW II. Such weapons also were intended for battlefield use but more as icons of martial prowess and less as weapons to be used against other swordmen. All the same military sword (see: Toyama-Ryu) taught basic cuts and thrusts as well as combinations thereof.

    5.) Yet another source of Korean sword was the police sabre which shared some characterisitics of the military sabre but whose usage was intended more for domestic issues such as armed bandits, deserters or rebels. Once again, the likelihood of having to go 1:1 with a highly skilled swordsman was unlikely and, as with the mandarin duck formation mentioned above, an individual LEO would have been accompanied by a number of individuals equipted with ropes and polearms for subduing the upstart. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Interesting information Bruce but it doesn't answer the question of what is the purpose of the Korean sword system you train? And what period in history was the system developed?
    It appears that Korea during it's earlier period must have had a relatively peaceful history for the situations you have decribed to be true. This could be an explaination as to why the european and Japanese traditions are similar since the both developed in areas of almost constant war.

    The Bear.
     
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Exactly, Bear, and that is a luxury of understanding that both those traditions have that is not lost on me.

    If I had any one single complaint about the Korean MA community it would be their failure to investigate and solidly document the actual historical development of their traditions over the last, say, 200 years. This omission was not necessary but arose from the dominance of Japanese material over Korean (owing to the Occupation) as well as the pre-occupation of the Korean MA themselves with commercial success.

    I also think that the Koreans suffer from some "embarrassment" on the World stage for not having bragging rights to the sort of romantic images of martial valor as do other cultures. For this reason Koreans incessantly harken back to the Three Kingdoms Era which, due to its poverty of documentation give them free-rein to make-up things to their heart's delight.

    Quite recently I became acquainted with Dr. CHOI Bok-kyu (see: SIB PAL KI) who has taken the lead in researching this very sort of information. While people love to filch the martial material that he has uncovered, they don't always like the stark light of academic investigation he turns on Korean history. Later this month I hope to spend some time with Dr. Choi in Amsterdam and come away with additional insights into our subject.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    This isn't exactly a situation that different from the state of modern historical european swordsmanship. Until the last 10 years German longsword was virtually forgotten since the late 16th Century. Luckily there are still some of the original manuals in existence to give us pointers but medieval Europeans had a terrible habit of dumping knowledge that wasn't immediately usable. It's really only after the invention of the printing press that you start to get much better record keeping in europe. It's also why we have far more information on renaissance arts than medieval arts.
    However, we are simply honest and say we don't know if this is correct but we test it as rigorously as possible against all available interpretations and hope that at some point we have something that resemble the arts as it was used in medieval europe.
    My hope is that at some point in the future we can test the art against Eastern swordsmen in the hope of further testing our interpretation.

    The Bear.
     
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sounds like you want to go dojo busting at the makotokai. Always up for a "friendly exchange of ideas".

    We have been training sword against stick of late and finding it most (ouch!!!) enjoyable.



    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  20. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We should have a shinai freeplay day. We have plenty of masks and gloves, etc. Would be good fun for everyone.

    The Bear.
     

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