Discuss the internal arts.

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Cooler, Feb 26, 2002.

  1. Cooler

    Cooler Keepin The Peace Supporter

    This is the place to discuss the internal arts like BaGuaZhang, XingYiquan, Yiquan, Pakmei, liuhebafa etc.

  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Recently got a shot of the Ba Gua video 'The principles of Ba Gua Zhang Fighting', its Bloody vicious. Everyone thinks (and please no-one take offence) that these little old men look harmless but you have to see this video (even if it is a little bit repetative).

  3. Tseek Choi

    Tseek Choi Banned Banned

    Jsut reading through some old posts, and found this one.

    Interesting listing of arts.
    Why would you say that Bak Mei could be regarded as internal?

    You're right about Bagua.
    My Xingyi Sifu also teaches bagua, and although it appears really gentle in practice, in application it is so fast and direct. A real surprise when I first saw it.
    I really want to study it further, but time is the main killer!
    My Sifu does however incorporate aspects of each art within the other.
    Just as it should be.

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2002
  4. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I was thinking about how the bagua guys practice their form walking around in a circle, it kind of reminds me of two animals sizing each other up, I've seen this sort of thing in real fights as well (although I've never seen anyone complete more than a half circle, probably because his/her friends would then be behind you!).
  5. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    Circle walking isn't primarily designed to put the bagua practitioner behind an opponent, for the very reasons that you cite: The other person will have plenty of time to react, and you would be turning your back on other possible players.
    The circle walking is useful to practice holding a pengpath while in motion, and to practice the many kicks that are in Bagua.
    There are other things, such as working the kua, but the primary advantage to walking the circle is that you don't hurt your nose by running into the wall, like you would with a straight line form.

    (For those who haven't seen a complete bagua form, it can last up to 15 minutes at moderate speed. Not too many training halls could accomodate the entire series of palm changes, AND the animals, Or the entire swimming dragon/body on both left and right sides, so circle walking is in fact also a matter of floor space).

    BTW, was that the Guo tape that you saw? Which little old men were you speaking of?

  6. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I'm not actually sure, a friend at my aikido club lent me the video and I've since given it back, but I'll ask next time I see him.
  7. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    A question on the Internal Arts!

    I watched a program on CMA eons ago on satellite about various forms of CMA, both Internal and External. One chap spent his afternoons shoulder charging a tree, and explained that his art, I forget now what it was, was External, though it was common practice for External stylists to switch to Internal styles when they got older.

    If an effective advocate of the External arts were to change to purely Internal arts, what Adjustments would he/she have to make physically and mentally?

    I appreciate that one does not exclude the other!

  8. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    I really, really, don't want to get off into a discussion of whose IMA is 'real', or whether Wing Chun, Tongbei, Fukien White Crane, etc. are Internal because they have this, that, or the other component.

    I would point out that the folks who grow up in a Chen Village family seem to have a pretty good grasp of Internal mechanics
    (and NO, I am not a Chen stylist of any type), and their training consists of 'leading the Qi' from the ground to the fingers, reeling silk exercises, the various jins, and all the rest of the stuff from the IMA Classics.

    A lot of people may say that they are already doing this, but if there is a real difference between Internal and External arts, and if someone wanted to make the transition, my thoughts are that they would have to retrain almost every muscular and nervous connection in their body to operate in an entirely different manner.


  9. Kosokun

    Kosokun Valued Member

    In my opinion, based upon my study of Yang style Tai Chi and Hsing-I Chuan and my observation of Chinese "external" systems and, of course karate, there really isn't much difference between internal and external arts where the "rubber meets the road".
    From what I can see, the external arts do have significant portions of their movements where the limbs move independantly of the body's waist and center. On the other hand, the Internal systems tend to move their limbs as a result of the movement of their waist. Also, the internal arts place a high degree of importance on positioning oneself so that they do not absorb fully an incoming blow. Rather the positioning is such that they can deflect the blow rather than "Block" it.

    Yeah, Yeah, I know all of that stuff about chi and other stuff, but you can't observe or measure chi. So, I'm limiting my discussion to that which can be observed and measured.


  10. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    Kosokun wrote:
    "...I'm limiting my discussion to that which can be observed and measured..."

    'Qi' is merely a term that has long been used to cover what the IMAs are trying to teach (not surprising, since many of them were developed in a culture where 'Qi' is used to describe/'explain' just about everything). Using it doesn't mean that one buys into every possible use of the word, particularly outside of the IMA.

    We could describe the method of practicing certain IMA exercises, by saying something like 'Imagine that your foot is sinking into the ground', and we would still be discussing something that cannot be observed or measured (an imaginary sinking).

    Or we could choose language such as 'train the fascia, sinews, etc. to contract instead of the muscles', and someone would be bound to point out fallacies in that statement.

    Any attempts to correct the terminology in this sort of discussion are, IMHO missing the mark. Trouble is, if we don't agree on what we mean when discussing IMA principles, then how can someone distinguish between a productive approach to training, and a popular sales pitch about 'mysterious life energies of the universe', and other New Age hype?

    So, for IMA purposes, when I say 'Qi', I am just making an historic reference, and I am not buying into Lam Kam Cheun's, or Al Huang's, or Mantak Chia's mystical usages of the term.


  11. PanZer Jester

    PanZer Jester New Member

    Kosokun, you said one's Chi cannot be observed or measured... I will agree with you completely on the observed, but I have heard of a way to 'measure' and oponent's Chi. I did not pay too much attention to this because at the time I was still learning how to focus mine; but what would make sense is that Chi ingeneral can be sensed and the stronger the Chi is the stronger the sense is. Again, I did not pay much attention to this at all so I'm not sure exactly how to sense one's Chi, but I'm sure it has to be done with a fully concious mind, or maybe in a deep state of meditation if one is able to meditate during normal activities. I will try to find where I thought I saw that and when I do (if I do) I will send a link if yall like...
  12. Kosokun

    Kosokun Valued Member

    To measure something, you need to be able to sense it and quantify it and verify that the thing that you're measuring is indeed the thing you think that you're measuring. In what you've alluded to, how is it you know you're measuring chi? Maybe what you think you're feeling is something else? Maybe an increase in blood circulation because your muscles relaxed in certain parts? Maybe a lack of circulation, how do you know?

    Also, you really can't measure your own chi, since it's difficult to discern that it's chi or some other physiological phenonemum. You'd need some sort of external device to measure your own chi, yourself. If someone else is "sensing your chi", how do you quantify it?

  13. PanZer Jester

    PanZer Jester New Member

    I can't really say anything about "measuring" your own Chi, I will see what I can find though...

    I tried to find some information on sensing an oponent's Chi, from what I gathered you use what's refered to as your "third eye", not sure if you've heard of this before or not... if you focus your Chi to your "third eye" and you're in a conscious state of mind, then you are actually able to feel the energy around you. The stronger the person's/object's (they do have Chi I believe, I will explain why I think so in a minute) Chi/energy is, the stronger it feels to you. Sensing this energy is done through the "third eye". With most things relating to Chi I am normally alittle skeptical but still think it could be possible so keep my mind open to new ideas about it. The reason why I'm not the least bit skeptical with this is when I was younger, say around 8, I did not know a single bit about Chinese techniques or anything similar, and also when my mind was in (in my opinion) the most unconscious state possible, when an object of any sort would come near where the "third eye" is located I felt a strange tingling feeling, the same that you get from focusing your Chi... and it even happened when an object would unexpectedly fly by unseen... If I had no idea what-so-ever how could my muscles have reacted imediatly then when the object imediatly got passed my "third eye" the feeling went away. In an unconscious state of mind that mine was in, how would this be possible?

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